IFS Therapy As A Non-Pathologizing Approach to Healing ft. Derek Scott
IFS Therapy As A Non-Pathologizing Approach to Healing ft. Derek Scott
In this episode of "Going Inside," host John Clarke explores the Internal Family Systems (IFS) therapy model with a special guest, Derek Scott, a seasoned IFS practitioner and trainer. Together, they delve into the intricacies of IFS, shedding light on its transformative impact on therapeutic practices.
Key Topics Discussed:
1. Introduction to Internal Family Systems (IFS):
- John and Derek provide insights into the core concepts of IFS, explaining how this model views the mind as a system with various subpersonalities or "parts."
2. Understanding Protectors and Exiles:
- The conversation delves into the roles of protectors and exiles within the IFS framework, exploring how these internal dynamics shape an individual's responses and behaviors.
3. Healing Trauma Through IFS:
- Derek shares his expertise on the role of trauma in IFS therapy, outlining how practitioners can work with protective parts to create a safe space for exploring and healing traumatic experiences.
4. Application of IFS in Clinical Practice:
- John and Derek discuss practical applications of IFS in therapy sessions, emphasizing the importance of cultivating a therapist's own self-awareness and the transformative potential for clients.
5. Resources for Learning IFS:
- Derek provides valuable insights into becoming proficient in IFS, highlighting the significance of supervised practice and recommending specific programs and resources for therapists interested in incorporating IFS into their practice.
For more information from Derek Scott, visit his website at https://ifsca.ca/
Interview transcript:
[00:00:00] John: This is Going Inside, an internal family systems therapy podcast. Going inside as a podcast on a mission to help people harness the power of IFS therapy to accelerate recovery from trauma, anxiety, depression, and addiction. I'm your host, John Clark. I'm a licensed trauma therapist in San Francisco, practicing here in the city and online.
[00:00:22] John: Follow me on Instagram, TikTok, JohnClarkTherapy and apply to work with me one on one at JohnClarkTherapy. com. Thanks for being here. Let's dive in.
[00:00:33] John: And Derek, thank you for, for being here.
[00:00:35] Derek: Oh, thanks for the invite. I appreciate the opportunity. I love IFS, so I appreciate any opportunity to talk about it. Thanks, John.
[00:00:42] John: Yeah, yeah, you know, I actually discovered you through a place where I spend way too much time, which is YouTube. That's how I learn about everything in life now, whether it's like, did I do my taxes wrong or what is IFS?
[00:00:55] John: So I found an episode of you. Doing a live [00:01:00] session with Tammy Sullenberger, who now is also my IFS consultant, and she's teaching my group practice IFS, and then I'm in your program Stepping Stones. And but I have to tell you that that video and seeing you do the model was just, first of all, incredible and obviously very generous for Tammy to offer.
[00:01:19] John: You know, to be a client in that session, but just to see the model live in action, it was just such a wonderful way to, to try to understand it. And it seems like that's a very IFS thing is that a lot of times the teaching is through experiencing it.
[00:01:34] Derek: Yeah, yeah, it's one of my students once said to me the difference between practicing it and reading about it is the difference between.
[00:01:42] Derek: Watching the Olympic swimmers and then diving in the pool, right? So yeah, you got to get in there.
[00:01:48] John: I'd love for you to maybe fill, fill us in a little bit more, just kind of, you know, who you are and how you got here. I've heard a bit of your story about how you came to IFS, but I'd love to hear a little bit of that for our audience.
[00:01:59] John: And then [00:02:00] we'll get into our, our, our topic at large here.
[00:02:03] Derek: Sure. Yeah. I went to 20 years ago down in Mexico. And when I got there, So this guy called Dick Schwartz, who's the founder of the model, and he was in a yurt surrounded by women, and my first thought was, oh god, I've slipped into a cult. I'm going to spend a week with group therapists.
[00:02:22] Derek: I don't even like therapists unless it's a cult. So my I later realized my protected parts were all up around this. And then about halfway through the week, I softened a lot. Had the opportunity to be a subject of a demo with Dick Schwartz, which was transformative, that one session, and then came home.
[00:02:41] Derek: I was so excited. It's like, this is the thing. So, I've got very skeptical parts and they were kind of irritated because they were looking for like where it doesn't fit, but it seems to fit. So, went to Best Buy, got a video camera, made a cheesy little video called, Understanding the Personality System, got a YouTube channel because [00:03:00] at the time there was nothing on YouTube and I thought, this is important, we've got to get this out, you know.
[00:03:05] Derek: And then I took the camera back because you can have it for 14 days and not pay for it, which I thought was a good deal, you know, I just went to Mexico. Mexico is expensive. Yeah. And then I discovered I like making videos. It's my preferred way to teach because it's quick and it's clear and it reaches people and writing a book is laborious.
[00:03:22] Derek: So this is my preferred way to get the information out there. So yeah, yeah, made a bunch of them.
[00:03:28] John: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You have a great, you know, selection between both demos and also more kind of didactic or talking about the model. You have a series where I think is another therapist, maybe kind of a friend of yours.
[00:03:41] John: And she's from the UK. I can't remember. Who. It's kind of interviewing you about IFS, but it's a really nice series broken up into different topics.
[00:03:48] Derek: Yeah, that's the IFS for Therapists series, speaking to some of the aspects of the model. Yeah, there's also another one which has so much fun doing where I play the client and the therapist.
[00:03:59] Derek: And when I'm the [00:04:00] therapist, I've got this long beard and when I'm the client, I've shaved it and it's just so fun. I ran around the house with a stepladder and same camera, I'm trying to do all these things, but it was to give a sense of what a session might look like, how it could flow.
[00:04:13] John: That's great. One time when I was in fifth grade.
[00:04:17] John: I was running for class president and I had the idea to interview myself in two characters and I had a, like a golf cap and I would wear it forward and I would speak in a really bad British accent. And then I would flip it around and be like the kid. And people loved it. And I won. So maybe some early parts work there.
[00:04:36] John: Who knows?
[00:04:37] Derek: I think we've got the same part, except for my accent is genuine. Yeah, exactly.
[00:04:42] John: I have to ask I'm always curious about how you ended up in, in Canada and yeah, how life brought you there. If you, if you don't mind. Oh,
[00:04:50] Derek: Well, I first came when I was 17. I wanted to travel. I didn't want to go to the States because it's the States and And I want to [00:05:00] go somewhere where I could speak English and be understood because my languages are not good So Canada made sense and I came to Toronto I was 17.
[00:05:07] Derek: I stayed at the YMCA for two nights. It was horrible. I looked through the paper and I found a a room in a shared house downtown and I went to see it and it was a, there were five young people in the house between 20 and 30 and they gave me the room even though I was just there for five weeks and they kind of adopted me and I got to live like a young Canadian, not in his parents home, downtown Toronto, and thought I am gonna move here one day.
[00:05:33] Derek: So I got my free education first in England. And at the end of that, it was stay in England with Margaret Thatcher or go to Canada. So guess what I did? Yeah.
[00:05:43] John: Great. I can imagine where you live is quite beautiful. I can always see this like glimpse of a tree behind you in your, your house there or wherever you are.
[00:05:51] Derek: I'm in British Columbia. I'm actually on top of a mountain in British Columbia. It is. It's beautiful. Yeah.
[00:05:56] John: Yeah. Sounds ideal. Well, yeah, let's talk about the [00:06:00] model a bit. I mean, just wherever you want to begin. Like I said, this is a new series for our podcast. But so therapists may have an idea of what IFS means, what it stands for.
[00:06:09] John: Some might be totally new to it. If you don't mind just kind of bringing us into the basics and then we can talk about, yeah, we'll find our way into it.
[00:06:18] Derek: Yeah. So Dick Shores developed the model in the 80s initially. And IFS stands for Internal Family Systems. He was a family systems therapist, and he realized, he got this clarity when working with his clients, when they talked about, a part of me feels like this, a part of me feels like that, he said, wait a second, what if these parts are real?
[00:06:39] Derek: And what if they're organized internally in the same way that external families get organized? And he started asking them about their parts. Discover that indeed the psyche is multiple. We all have a bunch of parts. And we know this intuitively. If I said to you, John, Hey, do you want to meet for lunch on Friday?
[00:06:56] Derek: You might say, Ah, part of me does, part of me doesn't. We do that all the time. We just [00:07:00] haven't noticed that we do that all the time. And then, all these different parts of us that have different roles, on top of that, at our core, is what Dick called our self, because his clients were saying, well, that's just myself.
[00:07:16] Derek: And that self consistently has the same qualities in all of us. Compassion, curiosity calmness. courage, creativity, connectedness, a couple of other C words. And what it boils down to for me is kindness, right? And so here's an example of that. If you, John, or any of the listeners here, step outside after this, you look down your street and you see there's maybe an eight year old kid who's crying, like sobbing into their hands.
[00:07:44] Derek: You look around. There's no other kids around. There's no other adults around. John, what's your impulse when you see that kid?
[00:07:51] John: Yeah, go right to them, comfort them, get down on their level, eye contact, just, yeah, just to help and be
[00:07:59] Derek: [00:08:00] there. Yeah, find out what's going on, right? So what are you, so what are you doing there?
[00:08:04] Derek: You're being calm, you're bringing your curiosity and your compassion to that vulnerable being. That's who you are. That's simply who you are at your core. Now, for many years in the mental health field a guy called Winnicott posited that it, you needed to have good enough parenting to have those kind of qualities.
[00:08:23] Derek: You have to learn them from being well parented. And what Dick clued into was that no matter what's happened to you, no matter what the level of trauma, at your core, this is who you are. Now that can be covered up by the different parts of you, but at your core, that's who you are. So when we're calling this a non pathologizing approach, the very fact we have to call it that, tells you that the mental health field has had decades of pathologizing us.
[00:08:50] Derek: What's wrong with you? Where's the disease? But what if there's nothing wrong with you? Well, there's nothing wrong with you or me or any of us that's [00:09:00] where we start with IFS and it's brilliant because it's accurate
[00:09:05] John: you know you all IFS talks a lot about the paradigm shift and that just continues to kind of floor me in terms of this the position that IFS takes with the person and how we're made and if someone comes in and they say, you know, I'm here because You know, I, I know that I drink too much and my wife says I drink too much, or I went to 12 step and they said, yeah, you're, you're an addict.
[00:09:30] John: And you always be an addict, whatever it is. And they come in with all that heaviness, all that shame. And of course, in IFS, we would say they're blended with all these parts. Yeah. Sometimes what I'm finding in my clinical work is, and still being new to the model is just starting there with the unblending piece.
[00:09:47] John: Right. So there's a party that really likes to drink. Right? There's a part of you that gets angry and raises your voice, right? And then you feel really bad about it. Yeah. How do you feel toward that angry part? Right? Can you, can you [00:10:00] find that angry part right now and just invite it all the way up? Like, why would I want to do that?
[00:10:04] John: Right? I'm here to get rid of that part. Yeah.
[00:10:07] Derek: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So what we would say then is, oh, the part of you that wants to get rid of that part, would it be okay with that one if we just got to know it? Because what we know is every single part of us, no matter what it's doing, has a positive intent. Yeah.
[00:10:21] Derek: Including, though this is going to sound odd, including suicidal parts, parts that are actually suicidal. And if someone's listening to this, they might be like, how the hell could that be a positive intent? If you ask it, if you just get curious about these parts, the suicidal part will usually tell you it is aware of other parts in the system holding so much pain, so much emotional distress, so much trauma.
[00:10:44] Derek: That life is really just about pain and the occasional escape from it. Yeah. And the suicidal part really could be seen as operating out of compassion itself, right? It's like, let's end the pain, even if it means ending the system. And once that [00:11:00] part is respected and understood, it will often back off. If it believes there's another option, IFS gives us the other option, which is the, what we call yourself, or your self energy, you bring that to the part holding the pain, and parts holding pain are usually kids that were hurt, sometimes deeply hurt, and there was no one around to witness that hurt, so a part holds the hurt, when as adults we can come to that part in our own system, so this isn't your job as the therapist to fix me, A, I'm not broken and B, it's not your job, but you guide me to coming into that part and I can say, Hey, what happened?
[00:11:39] Derek: What happened? How can you feel so badly? Who told you you were unlovable or whatever it's holding, right? And when it's witnessed now by me, it can release that pain, which means the protective parts can step down and that part is a lot more happy and it's not going to get triggered anymore. Because we've cleared the pain.[00:12:00]
[00:12:00] Derek: That's what we're doing with this work. And it's a very, very beautiful and accurate understanding of the human psyche. Yeah.
[00:12:09] John: I'm just a total convert. It's ridiculous. I've been doing therapy for 12 years and never have I found a model that feels so complete and so gentle and so genuinely honoring of The client of of humanity and that what if you actually do have what it takes inside of you to.
[00:12:34] John: Heal yourself. And it's also been a tremendous relief for me personally. I took like a year and a half sabbatical from doing clinical work, just reached absolute burnout points of kind of being the attachment figure for 20 people a week. Right. And I was trained psychodynamically. So everything that's happening is about you and me.
[00:12:52] John: Right. And so if you've got anger issues, I got to get you eventually to be angry with me and then I can be warm and empathic. And hopefully you internalize that and take [00:13:00] it out in the world, but I've got to take your anger for nine months to get there.
[00:13:04] Derek: Yeah. And the, and the the irony is, you know, if you're warm and empathic to my angry part.
[00:13:10] Derek: Another part of me will go, Oh, I can be angry and I can be met with warmth and empathy, but the original angry part might not have that experience at all because they're different parts, right? So totally, totally. I want to comment as well. John, you talked about unblending. So blending is when a part fully takes us over.
[00:13:26] Derek: So, you know, I am angry. That's a part or I am sad. That's a part. We know it's a part because it doesn't have those qualities of self. But that unblending piece all by itself, I want to share with you. I have three videos on my YouTube channel on understanding shame. Which is not you, how it gets taken on, and how we can clear it.
[00:13:46] Derek: Because it's not innate, but it's all over the place. Because we've all been shamed by our parents. It's a common parenting tool, right? So anyway, I made these three videos. They're free for people to access. And there's a meditation to help clear the shame. Very good feedback [00:14:00] on those. But I got this email a couple of years ago from a guy.
[00:14:02] Derek: Who's, who's he wrote, I am crying as I am typing this to you. I'm 50 years old. My entire life I believed at my core there's something wrong with me and I'm unlovable. And now knowing that that is held by a part of me, I cannot tell you the relief. He hasn't done any therapeutic work, he hasn't come, but just knowing that that's only a part of me and not my totality for this man was, he revisited 50 years of his life.
[00:14:34] Derek: And it's remarkable, just that one piece, what happens when we recognize that that is held by a part of us. So I wanted to share that with you, because, you know. It's so powerful. Just that
[00:14:47] John: it's, it's incredible. And you know, I just, I just started with a new client recently who you know, the one liner is like client with anger issues.
[00:14:57] John: Right. And [00:15:00] in our very 1st session, we just worked with again, inviting that angry part to, to be here. Can we get to know it a little bit? Can we ask it what it's trying to do for you? Right? This is where it gets really interesting. Yeah. Guess what? Guess what? Protectors try to do. They, they try to protect using the one tool they often have.
[00:15:21] John: Right. Yeah. Which is anger. Get people to back away from me. Right. Because it's something is about to go wrong. Right. Okay. Well, that makes sense. Right. And about, about how old is that part? How old does it think you are? Right. Just really gently just kind of exploring there. Right. Basic stuff. Right. But that externalizing or that, that, that unblending, right, is Was enough for her to go, I've been to 10 different therapists my whole life and, and, and she's had a classic experience where she comes in and they go, all right, you got anger issues.
[00:15:51] John: We gotta, we gotta get rid of this anger. Right? So what do we do? This kind of top down approach of like breathing or dbt skills, or maybe more [00:16:00] mindfulness, or when you feel anger, snap a rubber band on your wrist, you know, whatever it is. And it's like, yeah. That is a lot of therapy. And I, and I've done a lot of those things too.
[00:16:08] John: Very well intending of like, let's tamp down this, this, this ugly anger, right. Before it really screws your life up before you really yell at your kids. Like you've yelled at them a little bit. Like we don't want you to really. Y'all are like, that's where a lot of the work starts and that's where a lot of it stays, right?
[00:16:27] John: And then that experience of like something's really wrong with me and I got to get rid of this part of me I guess what the part is like they don't they don't like that either, right? And so we go in and we're actually not trying to get rid of you. We're trying to understand Kind of how you, how you got here and how you took on this, this role and the fears you have around, what if I didn't do it?
[00:16:47] John: What if I didn't turn on the anger? What might go wrong?
[00:16:53] Derek: Yeah, absolutely. And that's, you know, back to that every single part has a positive intent, right? What's the positive intent of your angry [00:17:00] part? You ask if, if you hypothetically, if you didn't respond with anger, what might happen? And here's a, possible scenario.
[00:17:07] Derek: You go to work every day. You have to go to work every day. You've got to bring in the money. And your boss, for whatever reason, shames you every day, humiliates you in front of the other staff every day. And it lands on a part of you that was maybe shamed when you were a kid that feels all of that, you know, the feelings that a kid will hold.
[00:17:24] Derek: And so, You know, quote, unquote, I have explosive anger at my boss. What's wrong with me? And the tragedy of therapy is well meaning therapists will agree. Oh, yeah, there's something wrong with you. And there is
[00:17:35] John: a code for it in a big book.
[00:17:38] Derek: Oh, yeah. And Big Pharma will make lots of money, like fixing it for you.
[00:17:42] Derek: You know, it's like, no, get to know the angry part. Who are you protecting? A vulnerable five year old. Could I hear what happened to the five year old so it gets witnessed and it can release it? Once that's gone. The boss will still keep shaming, but it won't land on the same trigger, and there'll be no need for the angry protector to come up.
[00:17:59] Derek: And that [00:18:00] angry protector is usually reactive when a part's been triggered that has some vulnerability. The other side of it are the proactive parts that want to make sure that that part, for example, doesn't get triggered. So if there's a part that feels like it's no good, How can we make sure it doesn't get triggered?
[00:18:15] Derek: Very commonly, we'll see the people pleaser. Every single person you meet, you have to put in some positive energy, you become a chameleon, so that they like you. So there's no risk that the part of you that feels like it's not okay is going to get triggered. That's exhausting. Every single person you meet.
[00:18:32] Derek: Or the perfectionist, if I just get everything right under all circumstances, I will not be criticized because criticism means there's something wrong with me. So, you know, these are very common protective parts. And like I say, they get exhausted. Yeah. And when we're able to come to the part that for whatever reason has picked up messages about not being good enough, witness it, help it clear it, then I don't need to be the perfectionist.
[00:18:57] Derek: I don't need to be the people pleaser. I can keep those [00:19:00] skills because that part of me has those skills and they can be very helpful. You're going for a job interview. You want your people pleaser right up there, but not every time I see another human being, right? That's just too much. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:19:12] John: So to go further with that.
[00:19:14] John: So. These protector parts operate in part based on the assumption that if a a more vulnerable part that is oftentimes very wounded, like you said, oftentimes can be quite young. In other words, an exile part, the next, an exile part. Can't handle what's about to happen or can't handle, right. The experience of shame.
[00:19:36] John: And so we've got to do something about it, right. Either prevent it altogether in my, in being perfectionist perfectionistic or never having flaws, right. Or in the case of firefighters, it might look a little bit different, right. In terms of that, that response to shame or perceived shame, like something shame is about to happen.
[00:19:54] John: So they jump in. Can you say more about that? That sure.
[00:19:58] Derek: Yeah, yeah. So you've got the [00:20:00] protective system comes in two halves, if you like, the ones that are proactive. Let's try and make sure that doesn't get triggered. When it does get triggered, which is inevitable if you just imagine going into work for a moment and your boss says something demeaning to you, if you didn't have your protective part, that part that just got triggered that feels a shame would begin to take over your whole body.
[00:20:22] Derek: And you'd be consumed with like a five year old's shame, right? And so your body would kind of cave in a bit, you couldn't make eye contact, you'd probably be frozen on the spot, you'd probably go red, you'd hate going red so you'd go more red, you wish the earth would swallow you, you might start to cry, that's not safe.
[00:20:39] Derek: That's not safe, particularly in that environment, or in very many environments. So to prevent that happening. That's when what we call the firefighters come in. They put, they distract from that emotional fire. Anger, if it's available to you, is a very common one. You might decide you can hang out till lunchtime, but then you're going to go to the bar.
[00:20:57] Derek: You might sneak out and smoke a joint. You might go to [00:21:00] the slots on the way home and do some gambling. You might suddenly get very tired. You might use food. Binging and purging food if you're, this is more common with a, usually a young women's demographic, but you might cut to relieve the emotional pain.
[00:21:16] Derek: These are, many of these activities are not socially supported, they're kind of frowned upon, right? So the manager parts of us that like to manage our lives, like the perfectionists and the people, they want us to look good. They're very concerned with social mores. When the firefighters do their reactive immediate thing, they don't make us look good, so that's when you hear in your head, you know, why the hell did you do that?
[00:21:39] Derek: What's wrong with you? Well, I had to be right to be angry, blah, blah, blah, blah, and you'll hear them, you'll hear them fighting inside your own head, right? And that's because of the polarity. But when those guys are going at it, the part that we don't attend to is that five year old that feels like it's not good enough.
[00:21:55] Derek: And that's the gift of this is recognizing when those extreme yeah. Behaviors are [00:22:00] occurring, that they're coming from parts that are extremely protected because there's a part in extreme distress, and that's where we go. So when I make a bold statement like, there's nothing wrong with you, or me, or any of us, Many of the people listening to this will say, oh, he doesn't know me, he doesn't know the things I've done.
[00:22:16] Derek: If you come to the part that did those things, and you ask it how it was protecting you, it will have an answer. So we could even go to the example of Trump. I don't know what happened to that man's childhood, but I can guess. Because what I do know about him, is he's achieved, if you like, the highest position possible in the land, and it's not Enough, which means he's not enough, which means there's a little boy inside of him.
[00:22:43] Derek: Whatever that boy picked up He's not good enough and his protector has taken him to this place Where you can't go any higher really and he still doesn't at his core feel like he's good enough because that's not the answer The answer is to come to that little boy and say [00:23:00] hey, sweetie. Who told you you weren't good enough What happened if he was able to do that?
[00:23:05] Derek: He wouldn't be acting out and all of these Frankly, horrific ways, and I realize that some of your listeners are going to be Trump supporters, but I got to speak what's true for me, right? Looking at the United States from Canada, it's like, what on earth? Like, really? But a lot of that you can look at as protected parts connected to exiles.
[00:23:26] Derek: And so that's how I would understand even that man's behavior, which by many standards is outrageous is a protective part of him, protecting another part of him. Now, unfortunately, he also has power and he has access to power and the way he's using it is the way he's using it. But that's an example of, there's nothing wrong with him per se, right?
[00:23:47] Derek: But he does have extreme hurt and extreme protectors trying to compensate. Yeah, yeah.
[00:23:53] John: So I. Both in my clinical work, it has changed how [00:24:00] I literally see my clients in the second they sit down. Right? And I'm kind of looking for parts and I'm hearing parts. And a lot of times they come in and they're going, the parts are going like this, right?
[00:24:09] John: Or there's five or six that I've heard from in the first 40 seconds they wanted in there. They want to tell me everything. Right? And it's like, they want to please me and all this. And it's like, okay, yeah, wow, there's, we've got a lot of parts here. But also just in my life it has given me A slightly different worldview to your point on, on Trump and just seeing people differently, right.
[00:24:32] John: Seeing them and, and thinking about their parts, right. And, and they are not that, that is a part of them, but they are not, that is profoundly humanizing, right. If there's people in my life that bother me, right. Or it's like, I just don't know why that person just bothers me. In my training, again, 10 years of working psychodynamically, it's like, well, I have some transference issue and it's about me and my unresolved BS.
[00:24:55] John: And it probably has to do with my dad and I got to work on that. And it kind of ends there in a way, right? [00:25:00] I feel shame for having transference, right? Whereas IFS takes a very different stance on what. You guys would call, you know, transference. So maybe you can speak more to that too. And even as therapists are working with their, have parts up in a session with, yeah, yeah.
[00:25:18] John: Or someone in their personal life.
[00:25:20] Derek: Let me speak to this session because there's a piece here that I'd like to teach as well. It's important for me. I'm part of the College of Social Work in Ontario, Canada. And they put out a quarterly publication. And then the In the centerfold of this quarterly publication at the top of the page, there's a hammer and a gavel, like a judge's thing, and there's all these judgments on therapists that have transgressed, and I mean, for me, I know the rules.
[00:25:47] Derek: I don't need to see, you know, and it reads a bit like really cheesy therapist porn because they're like, you know, by the third session So and so put their hand on the knee of the client. They said it was to reassure them. By the fifth [00:26:00] session, the hand was sliding up their thigh. I really don't want to read this, but a part of me finds it compelling.
[00:26:05] Derek: But what's going on here? If you ask most therapists, for example, do you ever sexualize a client? Do you ever feel sexually attracted to a client? The response will usually be, no, I'm a professional. That is a part. Of course, if somebody hot walks into your office, you're gonna have a part that goes, woo!
[00:26:24] Derek: Right? You just are. That's how we are, right? The difference with IFS is, if I notice that part of me, I would say, I know, hey, such a shame we're meeting in this context. It means we can't act on it, right? We're not in a bar, or a coffee shop, or at a party. And I know that's hard for you, because you think he's hot, right?
[00:26:43] Derek: So yeah, it's hard, and then it will pull back, and it will kind of sulk a bit, but it will pull back. And now I am doing the therapeutic work. If, however, I'm saying, I would never have applied the sexualizer client, this part will go, Oh good, I can sneak in under that idiot's radar. And [00:27:00] that's where something like sexual abuse of clients and the mis the abuse of the therapeutic dyad happens and it's so wrong ethically and morally and it does so much damage to the client and it's not necessary if we could just acknowledge that within our humanity there is a part that might find a particular client sexy.
[00:27:21] Derek: Let's just acknowledge it and then not act from it because it's just a part. That in itself could do so much good for a profession that, I mean, we all know the scandals in this profession and it's damaging to clients, it's damaging to the profession, and it's absolutely not necessary. So that's one example that obviously is quite strongly about.
[00:27:43] John: Well, I, you know, again, I, my Kind of therapist part translates things from psychodynamics into IFS now and so thinking about kind of like You know the role of suppression right or of like I have a thought that [00:28:00] Clients attractive and I need to work really hard to get rid of that thought or suppress it, right?
[00:28:04] John: And then I feel kind of bad about it and like what kind of therapist am I what kind of monster am I right? And that is just almost exactly the opposite of what you just walked us through, right? Which is like, of course that that part is feeling some attraction. Oh, yeah, that makes sense. You're feeling that.
[00:28:19] John: Yeah, I get it You can just hang out and you know See how the session goes and you're bringing your parts along for the ride But just like if you were trying to get anyone in your life to like change We don't get people to change by shaming them, by guilting them, right. By coming at them by, why, why are you doing that?
[00:28:39] John: Right. Why are you being attracted again? You know, we have a lot at stake here and it's like. Then, then the part feels shame or they come back twice as strong. Right. And I find that is, that's very true. Like to me, it's also why like things like interventions don't really work. You have 10 people coming and going, Hey, you're, you're an addict and you need to stop.
[00:28:55] John: Right. Or whatever. And then that, you know, you might kind of [00:29:00] manage that, you know, I don't know, quell that part for 30, 60, 90 days, whatever. And then it comes back twice as strong or people relapse or whatever it is. So I just see, I just see all that in a different way. Now seeing the world and my clinical work through an IFS lens.
[00:29:15] Derek: That's great. Yeah. It's a great example. And like in the recovery community, they have this term, the white knuckle drunk, right? And what that means is you can go to the party, but you're clenching your fists the whole time. You will not drink because the manager parts can make sure you don't, but you're not.
[00:29:31] Derek: Comfortable, you have to leave by nine o'clock because you're so stressed out. Well, that's, I mean, if your goal is to not drink, you can do it for a period of time, right? But, if you come to the drinking part and say, hey, how come you're drinking? Oh, you're connected to a part that gets socially anxious.
[00:29:47] Derek: Okay, maybe we could get to know that one. Oh, that one tracks back to your first day in the playground when you got beaten up by the other kids and they laughed at you and you felt like you couldn't handle social situations. Great, let's get that five year old out of there. All right, let's help that [00:30:00] one out.
[00:30:00] Derek: Let's hear its story. Then, no more social anxiety, no more habitual need to drink. Now, addiction is a bit complex because if it's been going on for years or decades, it becomes an habituated response and it takes a bit more work. It's not that straightforward. But those are the essential dynamics around parts that will use substances because there are other parts that they're connected to that are feeling distress.
[00:30:24] Derek: And not to say that everyone that has a drink As an XL part, that's not it at all, but if it's, if it's habituated and it feels compelled any behavior that feels compelled, you're looking at a part that's holding distress. So the compelled people pleaser, the compelled drinker is essentially the same as being compelled by another part that we can help.
[00:30:44] John: I want to come back to this and also the role of trauma in our parts. I also just want to take a moment, number one, to tell the folks that are here live watching. If you have questions for Derek, we got about 10 minutes left. Please ask them in the chat. I'll bring them up one [00:31:00] by one. And and we'll see if Derek can kind of talk us through them.
[00:31:03] John: I also want to give Derek, just give you a second to let people know exactly how you. You know, help people learn IFS, how you help therapists and, and of course, where they can go to learn about your programs. And then we'll, we'll keep talking.
[00:31:16] Derek: Sure. Thanks. Yeah. So, if you're curious about any of this, you can go to my website.
[00:31:22] Derek: I F S C A dot C A. It's pretty straightforward. I offer a four month course which teaches mental health professionals the one you're in, John how to really get this model so that you can practice, you have practice sessions, there are consult groups, there are didactic teachings, and the end of the course, by the end of the course, you'll have a sense of how you can operate therapeutically from your own what we call self.
[00:31:47] Derek: And it's funny, John, because I know your work has, has been about helping therapists build their practice. IFS is the emerging paradigm in mental health. And so if you train in this modality and you get good at it, Your [00:32:00] practice will be full within two years because people will refer to you and they'll refer their friends and family to you.
[00:32:04] Derek: So and You're not tired at the end of the day You do not burn out with ifs because you are not responsible for the client. You know, you can't be it makes no sense the other option, for anyone it's to go to my youtube channel, I think it's Derek Scott YouTube or IFSCA YouTube, if you Google that, you'll find me, a whole bunch of free videos, right, especially I designed a lot of them for people that cannot afford therapy but want to learn how to do this for themselves.
[00:32:31] Derek: So please visit the YouTube channel if you'd like to do that. Thanks, John. Great.
[00:32:36] John: Yeah. And the program has been amazing for me so far. You know, and, and it's very experiential. So we're also practicing IFS is one with one another, which is perhaps the best way to learn. It's also for, for. Myself and some of the folks in my practice groups, the first time we've done therapy in front of anyone in 10 years.
[00:32:56] John: So we naturally had parts up around that, right? I had this kind of [00:33:00] 17 year old part who he almost like reading in front of the classroom, you know, being a teenager and fumbling through it or, you know, feeling embarrassed or whatever it is. And a lot of parts up around what if these people judge me, what if they think I'm a terrible therapist?
[00:33:13] John: Right. And then of course it's like, okay. Work with that, right? And learning to work with our own systems is just such a huge part of the training, which I so appreciate. And it's not easy. You know, not I. F. S. I. One of my martial arts instructors used to say simple, but not easy, simple, but not easy.
[00:33:28] John: And I think some of that comes up with with me even just practicing the six F's. You know, it's like simple, but not easier. Not easy to do it smoothly, you know, with clients and while also working with your own system.
[00:33:41] Derek: But what you're doing, John, is you're learning the nuances of the work, which is so important.
[00:33:45] Derek: A lot of people, a lot of therapists will read books on IFS and think they can do it and they can't and it doesn't work. So once you've No, not at all. Once you, no, once you've got the nuances, it's like, oh, that's what's gonna make you an excellent IFS informed therapist. So, and
[00:33:58] John: people systems are [00:34:00] so different, right?
[00:34:00] John: Right. Some clients sit down and right away you're working with parts and you're going deep and there's an unburdening on the table, other. Other clients who step in and it's it's chaotic. Parts are very up. It's, it moves very fast and it's hard to even get them to work with one part. At the end of the session, you walk away going.
[00:34:17] John: I'm not sure if we got anywhere today to your point about the, the burnout piece. I want to say that has very much been my experience and after my year and a half sabbatical coming back and primarily using IFS with my clients you know, a few weeks ago I saw six clients in a day, which is really the most I would ever see.
[00:34:35] John: And I came home and I kind of told my wife, I said I know you're not gonna believe this, but I. I feel great. I feel just like I did in the morning when I started and she's astounded, right? And like, I'm ready to go. We can do, I've got kids stuff to do. I got a three year old or I can hang out with my wife, whatever it is.
[00:34:51] John: Whereas the last 10 years, it's like six sessions and she knows I need to be in the basement alone, like with my headphones on for at least two hours before I can even. Like [00:35:00] talk to her, right? It's just psychically just so much to take on. And so, whereas now it truly is between clients, parts, parts and self, right?
[00:35:10] John: And that self, the parts connection, and that has just been such a tremendous relief that I don't have all the answers. So they come in and they go, you know, I'm thinking about breaking up with, with my partner. And do you think I should and they just bring that on you and they put it in your lap, right?
[00:35:24] John: Or whatever it is, or that I need to be their attachment figure. to help them resolve some, some relational trauma or whatever it is. So,
[00:35:34] Derek: and after, after a good IFS session, here's an example, right? 23 year old young woman in an emotionally abusive relationship. She believes she deserves it. She doesn't deserve anything else.
[00:35:44] Derek: She learned that in the family of origin because her dad was neglectful and abusive of her. And so she's, you know, her self esteem's in the toilet. He has a session where she realizes that that's a 6 year old girl that's been getting her attention, who feels like she's she's unlovable. [00:36:00] It helps that part out.
[00:36:02] Derek: Once that part's helped out, I hear her say, you know what? I'm better than this. I'm going to leave that guy. Right? We end the session. I put on Cher because I'm an aging fag and I dance around the kitchen, right? It's like, that was a great session because she did her own work, which I guided her to. And the joy that becomes available in doing the work is just remarkable.
[00:36:22] Derek: So, yeah, no, no burnout here.
[00:36:25] John: Yeah. No, that's, that's huge. We've got about five minutes left. I just want to get, if anyone has questions from the chat about IFS or anything Derek's talked about, if not I could probably prompt Derek with another, another question. Maybe for now, Derek, you know, I'm, I'm primarily a trauma therapist, you know, I've done EMDR since 2016 or so.
[00:36:48] John: And you know, I train. Our therapist here at the practice. Can you say a little bit about the role of trauma and our parts are typically how parts work is looks a little different when there's trauma or even [00:37:00] complex trauma.
[00:37:02] Derek: That's a lot to go into in 4 minutes. So let me let me just speak to what you'll find most commonly with trauma.
[00:37:09] Derek: What's happened with trauma usually is a child has been hurt by an adult. If it's interpersonal trauma, adults are meant to nurture children. We are not meant to be hurt by adults. We're the only mammalian species that makes war on its own children. And so, that system learns that adults are not safe, people are not safe.
[00:37:32] Derek: So that system is not going to open up to you just because you call yourself a trauma therapist, no matter what, you know, you have on your wall, you're not safe. So it's going to take quite a while for that system to determine that you are safe, that that system will put you through tests to see if you, if you can consistently be there because that's not been the experience.
[00:37:51] Derek: And the protectors, you'll be meeting the protective system a lot in clients with trauma. So you just hang in with the protective system, let it know that you [00:38:00] get how important it is to dissociate, you get how important it is to be angry, you get how important it is to be self effacing, however the protectors are presenting, you let them know that you respect them, and you get what they're doing and why they're doing it, and over time, the protective system will begin to consider Allowing you or allowing the client self to come into the parts that are holding the trauma material, and we do that in a way that's safe, we can titrate the trauma material so it doesn't overwhelm, doesn't all come at once, and we can facilitate healing from trauma in that way.
[00:38:33] Derek: Complex trauma is, you know, by definition a bit more complex and we do not have time to go into that right now. If, if, and if you're working with the MDR, which is not a system based on multiplicity, if you let the protective system know what you're going to do, you're basically going to bypass them and access some trauma material and you, and you get them on board, or you ask them how that is for them.
[00:38:54] Derek: If the protective system feels respected as you go in with the. EMDR work, [00:39:00] you'll get much less backlash and much more of a successful outcome with EMDR. When you combine it with IFS, they can work very well together. Yeah.
[00:39:09] John: Yeah. No, that's well said. And I gave you an impossible question here. Four minutes left.
[00:39:14] John: I also find that in the case of clients with a lot of The trauma that the protectors are, like you said, quite polarized also, they can be quite angry. And sometimes clients and me are a little surprised to stumble into that, especially if it's a client that presents as kind of quiet or meek or kind of scared.
[00:39:34] John: Right? And then you have a protector that's up and it's really angry, right? It's the first time the client's self has ever met this protector. And sometimes that first meeting can be intense. And so. Yeah. Again, back to the therapist, right? It's like working with my own system and going really slow with folks as we step into, to, to their system.
[00:39:54] John: And also cause their parts are checking me out too. And wondering, of course, is this guy? Okay. [00:40:00] Right. Is, you know, is it okay for me to come out? Can can, can the people in the room handle my anger? Right. And oftentimes they have very good reasons as to why they are the way they are.
[00:40:10] Derek: Right. But it also, I think, you You know, I have angry parts that come up around children that have been hurt, right?
[00:40:17] Derek: I've got parts that are just, you know, currently what's happening in Gaza, that the children are being, children are being killed, like what is that, you know, and I have parts tremendously sad about that and also parts that are just really angry about that, and parts that get very angry about the hurt that's been visited on some of my trauma clients and my work is to acknowledge those parts of me.
[00:40:40] Derek: Because they're great parts to have, and then ask them to pull back so I can be present with the client in the way they need me to be, which is not me being angry or me being sad, it's me holding my compassion for them. Yeah. That's, that's the work of the therapist really, get your own parts out of the way.
[00:40:57] Derek: So then you can present for the client and then [00:41:00] to be able to facilitate their healing from that place. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:41:04] John: Great. Just about a minute left here, Derek. I'm just being mindful of time. We have 1 question. We've already kind of touched on that a little bit. And I know this is a bigger can of worms for IFS at large now, as it gains popularity at an incredible rate.
[00:41:20] John: I've personally never seen anything like it in, in the demand for IFS training, but. Anne on YouTube asks, best resources for becoming proficient at IFS?
[00:41:31] Derek: You need to be in a program where you're practicing the model. That's the key piece. Now, if you can get into the IFS Institute that's good.
[00:41:38] Derek: They're level one training, but they have thousands of applicants and they, they do a lottery. Some people have been entering the lottery for 8 years. Yeah. There's my program stepping stone people that have taken that and the level 1 tell me they regard them as being the same. That's from their perspective.
[00:41:55] Derek: Any program you can get into where you get supervised practice, and that's the [00:42:00] key piece. So, a lot of the courses that are around PESI or the online circle, their recordings, you know, you, you, you don't get that lived experience. And if you're not practicing, you can't become aware of your own parts and the challenges, as you named, John, that come up.
[00:42:14] Derek: So. The stepping stone course has availability right now for January if people want to sign up for that. But yeah, anything that offers supervised practice from credible folk is what you want to be doing. Great.
[00:42:27] John: Yeah. And again, I'm Derek's not paying me to say this, but I'm part of his stepping stones program and it's wonderful.
[00:42:34] John: It's a really great blend of didactic. So teaching just enough, but then. Letting us try it right. And work in practice groups and be the client and be the therapist and be an observer, right. And then we get our questions answered the next week in a consulting group. It's just a really nice flow of practice and learning.
[00:42:52] John: So it's been incredible. For, for me so if folks are interested, I would say, jump on it sooner than later. Cause mine filled up really [00:43:00] fast when I signed up and yeah, so next one starting in January, as Derek said I F S C a dot C a to learn more about the stepping stones program. I've got a link to Derek's YouTube channel here in the chat.
[00:43:13] John: I'll also put it in the description and yeah, make sure to check out his channel and subscribe there as well and reach out. If you're interested in in one of his programs, so Derek, I can't thank you enough for being here. Just getting us started in this new chapter of our show over here. So it's been really wonderful.
[00:43:29] John: I can't think of a better teacher to come in and warm us up to to learning about. So, thank you again.
[00:43:36] Derek: I appreciate the invite. Thanks John.
[00:43:38] John: Thanks Derek. See everyone. Have a good. Thanks for listening to another episode of going inside. If you enjoyed this episode, please like, and subscribe wherever you're listening or watching and share your favorite episode with a friend.
[00:43:51] John: You can follow me on Instagram, at JohnClarkTherapy and apply to work with me one on one at JohnClarkTherapy. com. See you next time.[00:44:00]
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