Avoiding Protector Bypass in IFS Therapy
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In this episode of Going Inside Live, John Clarke answers therapist questions about some of the most common challenges in Internal Family Systems (IFS) therapy, including working with protectors, accessing exiles, recognizing self-like parts, and navigating storytelling in sessions. John explores why rushing toward exiles can undermine safety, how therapists can deepen client work without forcing the process, and what it truly means to practice from self-energy.
Inside this Conversation:
Why "getting to the exile" is often the wrong goal—and how protector bypass can create risks in IFS therapy.
How to recognize when clients are talking about parts versus genuinely being with their parts.
Practical guidance for interrupting stories, deepening internal focus, and helping clients move toward meaningful healing work.
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Transcript
John Clarke: [00:00:00] And this is part of how we avoid bypassing protectors, which is a real risk in IFS and something that can be very dangerous
Going Inside is a podcast on a mission to help people heal from trauma and reconnect with their authentic self. Join me, trauma therapist John Clarke, for guest interviews, real-life therapy sessions, and soothing guided meditations. Whether you're navigating your own trauma, helping others heal from trauma, or simply yearning for a deeper understanding of yourself, Going Inside is your companion on the path to healing and self-discovery.
Download free guided meditations and apply to work with me one-on-one at johnclarketherapy.com. Thanks for being here. Let's dive in My name is John Clarke. This is "Going Inside Live." I'm a trauma therapist out here in San Francisco, California. I also run a teaching practice called Calm Again Counseling in San Francisco. And, um, I'm a trainer, supervisor, consultant for therapists who are wanting to deepen their [00:01:00] trauma work.
Um, part of how I do that is through my program, Pathways to Self. You can join Pathways to Self at johnclarketherapy.com/pathways. It includes a weekly consult group where you can get help from me every single week in a small, uh, a small, uh, setting on Zoom. Highly recommend that you, uh, join that program if you're interested in working with me directly.
If you have questions, submit them in the chat. Otherwise, I'm gonna jump right in with our pre-submitted questions. First one is from Summer. Summer says, "Do you always go through all of the managers and firefighters before going to the first exile?" Um, the way I would answer this question is it's not really like going through the managers and firefighters.
It's more inviting protector response along the way. When you sufficiently invite protector response all along the way, [00:02:00] protectors will generally show up and speak out and object if you invite their objections. So in order to keep the work safe, you just want to be asking about protectors all along the way.
And this is part of how we avoid bypassing protectors, which is a real risk in IFS and something that can be very dangerous So yeah, it's just kind of a different way of, of thinking about it Another question from Summer. Summer says, "Does it take months before moving to exiles? In demos, it seems the therapist is working through managers to exiles in one session, and the demos typically seem to be with people familiar with IFS."
Well, I'll answer that question first. Yes. Part of why demos are so skewed, and I'm guilty of it 'cause I have a lot of demos on my channel and on the podcast, is that people typically know enough about IFS or they know a lot about IFS or [00:03:00] they're an IFS therapist, so it looks really easy to work with their system.
They might already have some awareness of their parts and some relationships with their parts so that the therapist, like me, I, I'm benefiting from those connections and from that head start. So typically we have a real head start. Also, there's some pressure to kind of like perform, and so i- in terms of the cl- on the client side, and so they're often gonna feel some of that pressure, and their parts are gonna kind of come out of the woodwork a bit more because they want this demo to go well and they want it to be helpful for me, the therapist.
So a lot of reasons why a demo can often look and feel like almost an accelerated version of the model, which it can be. Um, that being said, so does it take months before moving to exiles? Well, the goal, so to speak, is never to move toward exiles necessarily. It's not to get to the exile. This is, again, a dangerous mentality.
The [00:04:00] goal is to increase self-leadership and to restore a greater sense of harmony in the system. Part of how we do that is we go in and we make sure all parts are heard and understood and witnessed. That's like an oversimplification of the model because when we are in this mindset of like getting somewhere with it or unblending parts or unburdening parts, which is this amazing, incredible, you know, uh, uh, you know, shamanism-inspired experience that, uh, you know, we can get really tunnel vision on that, that like that's what the model is.
And those are components of it and the, the healing steps and whatnot, but the essence of the model is more about being with and listening and understanding parts regardless of their label.
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But it's a good question. Again, we just wanna really be with whatever parts come. And when we're in our self-energy and we are lacking an agenda, you'll feel it. It'll feel different. It'll feel like you're lacking an agenda When you feel like you're trying to, quote, "make something happen" in a session, it'll feel like you have an agenda.
There'll be a different energy toward it
Okay, Anna says, "Have you worked with clients who are really knowledgeable about IFS but don't seem to be getting anywhere? How do you tell them when talking about parts has become a way of avoiding being with them?" Um, this is a great question, and it's really common. I had a client who, he knew a lot about IFS, and he would literally [00:07:00] go and do his IFS work and work with his parts on his own and then come and just report to me during session.
Um, yes, it was very boring, but that's how his system worked, at least for the time being. And even though it was frustrating, of course, I wanted to get in there and help him, this is just how his system was organized, and it was proportionate to the degree of trauma in his system. So because of that, my job was just to follow his lead, right?
In motivational interviewing, you would call this rolling with the resistance. I don't use the word resistance, but I just honor that this is how his system is working, and his way of staying safe is doing the work on his own and then telling me about it and having my thoughts and feedback, and then he would go and try stuff.
That's just how the work happened, right? Eventually, I would, you know, wanna get to a place with him where, um, we're doing the work in session, but I also am not forcing it by any means. So yeah. A lot of clients are very savvy. They[00:08:00]
know about IFS, and they will be in these kind of quote self-like parts where they're talking about parts and talking about the work but not actually doing it. So the invitation, as always, is to invite them deeper and invite them to go from just talking about these parts to actually quote being with them.
That's the shift and where we're inviting them into a deeper level of work where we're actually doing insight work. Yeah. Okay, Chris says, "This is a marketing question, but in two thou- 2026, what simple marketing strategy would you focus on a few hours a month to find a few full pay clients?" This is a really good question.
I mean, the, the first thing I would say is your Google listing. This is a hard pivot from IFS, so bear with me. Um, Google, your Google listing, Google Business listing, formerly called Google My Business, is one of the easiest things to get traction with. Set up your listing, make sure it's fully active, [00:09:00] fill out every single blank on that listing, upload pictures, new pictures, take pictures of your office with your cellphone, upload additional headshots of yourself, et cetera.
IFS is simple but not easy. On the surface, it's about parts and self. But when you're in the room with a client, things can get complex fast. Helping someone meet a protective part or wounded exile, that takes skill, and most importantly, it takes safety. My name is John Clarke, trauma therapist and IFS therapist, and in this free webinar for therapists and practitioners, we're gonna explore the subtleties that make IFS so powerful and how to navigate them with more clarity and confidence.
You're gonna learn why safety is everything and how to do it well, what trips therapists up when applying IFS in practice, and a simple tool that you can begin using right away. If you wanna go beyond theory and truly embody the work, then this is for you. Join the free webinar today. Link is in the description
Make sure that listing is fully complete and you've done everything [00:10:00] to make it a very good and complete local listing. If you can, you might ask some colleagues or referral parties in your region for reviews on your listing 'cause we can't ask clients, right? But you could ask a colleague. They need to be in your area 'cause it's a local listing, so their IP address needs to be local or regional at least.
Um, beyond that, I would still do the same thing I've always done, which, you know, for me, everything is Google focused. It's Google Ads, Google My Business, and SEO. It's really pretty boring, and email marketing. That's it. So, build an email list, right? When people join your practice, when clients join your practice, g- get them to opt into the email list and then send out a monthly newsletter just to stay top of mind for people.
Send out some trauma tips or whatever. So, if you're working really hard to generate all these leads, and you might see hundreds of clients over the course of your career, but most therapists [00:11:00] don't have a centralized place to track them and keep, uh, you know, keep in touch with them. So, an email list is, is where and how you can do that.
And then with your SEO, you know, honestly, I would just, um, uh, I'd probably get help with it. Yeah. I'd probably get help with it 'cause I've, I've done it long enough to where, um, it's just better for me to outsource it Great question. I'll answer a few more, and then if there are any live, I'll answer those, and then we'll, we'll wrap up.
It'll be a short one today. Um, let's see I don't know if I answered these before, but I'll, I'll keep going unless I hear otherwise. Um, Mark says, "How do you know when to ask a part to step back versus not?" Um, I have heard that the rule of thumb is that if you ask a part to step back three times [00:12:00] then, uh, and they keep blending, then that becomes the new target part.
That's the IFS answer. I guess I've just-- I, I'm, and again, I don't know if I already answered this. I'm just not a huge fan of, like, this component anyway, of like constantly asking parts to step back. It just feels a little rude to me. I get why we do it. I get the point. I get that you can do it nicely, but it just feels a little dismissive.
So I'm more inclined, like when a part appears, just to invite it to the table, so to speak Uh, Megan says, "How long does it take for your parts to develop trust with a new provider?" Well, it, it just, it takes as long as it takes. You know, it's a really good question, but it takes as long as it takes, and we move at the speed of trust, right?
And everything takes longer than you think it should take, so we all need to be working more slowly
Yeah. Okay, we have a live question from Gabriel. Uh, [00:13:00] "Thoughts on the value of full IFS certification versus just getting level one training?" Gosh, that's a great question, and I'm gonna try to answer this delicately. Um, I, I think if you wanna do the certification, do it for your own sense of accomplishment, not for the PR of it.
That's my answer. I think level one can get you solid with your fundamentals, and then you can continue growing with the model through your own IFS therapy work as a client, through consultation and something like Pathways to Self, where we're working with the model every week and keeping that work alive.
Um, I think you can go on retreats. You can do all sorts of stuff to deepen your work. Um, there's also IFSCA and Stepping Stones and Stepping Deeper and their programs, which are great. So, um, but that being said, you know, af- level one is a lot of time and it's expensive, but then levels two [00:14:00] and three are less time and less expensive, so I think that's a very good thing.
So if you've done level one and the idea of being IFS certified is, uh, you know, compelling to you, then it, it, it might make sense to do that. I just wouldn't necessarily expect clients to come pouring in because all of a sudden you're IFS certified and not just IFS trained, meaning level one trained. So just make sure you have expectations set about it.
Very rarely, you know, I think does a client come in and go, "Gosh, I wanna make sure you're levels one, two, and three trained." Yeah. They really wanna know, like, "Do I feel safe with you and do you know IFS? Can you actually use IFS with me?" And yeah, I think that's, that's more important. That's a good question Okay.
Another question from perhaps Katie. Uh, "When a client keeps coming back to the story, how do you know when to interrupt and when to let them keep going?" This is a [00:15:00] fantastic question. It's something that comes up a lot in Pathways to Self. Um, if it seems like they're doing good work, I might be inclined to get out of the way and stay out of the way.
At the same time, if when they're telling the story, I get a sense that, like, they've told this story a million times and they're not connected to it, there's no affect, right? Um, I might interrupt more because I don't feel like this is super helpful It's really just an intuition thing, right? It's a judgment and it's a moment where you go, "Does it seem like we're doing some deeper work here or in some new territory here?
Or does it seem like the client is boring themselves?" And then of course, what you do is you make a process comment, right? "Hey, on one hand, I wanna hear this full story if you wanna tell me. On the other hand, I just wanna make sure that you wanna tell me this whole story." Or check in to see if there's any parts that wanna tell me something else or work on something else, right?
Um, a lot of [00:16:00] times clients are just saying what they think they should say for us to then help. I'm a believer that clients don't know what to talk about in order for us to help them, which is weird. It's a weird admission, but I think it's true. So we have to help them, and I do a lot more interrupting than you would think.
We did a demo, or excuse me, a role play this morning in Pathways to Self, and I had the therapist role play as their client, and I interrupted a lot. Because the client is very much in story and bouncing all over the place, and part of our role is to help the client achieve some depth in the work. And how do we achieve depth?
By shifting into an internal focus and keeping that internal focus there for as, as much as they can tolerate safely within their window of tolerance. So with this client, I was interrupting a lot because it was really hard for him to get that internal focus. So, you know, the, the, the point is it, it-- The answer is it depends, and when in doubt, make a [00:17:00] process comment.
And if you do interrupt or you're afraid of interrupting, make a process comment about that. "How was it for me to interrupt you? Is it okay for me to interrupt you? Can we make, do some contracting around me interrupting you? Or if there's a point at which me interrupting you is too much, you can also tell me, and I wanna l- and I'll listen and just go back to bearing witness to your story."
So it's a dance, right? Therapy's a dance. This whole thing is a dance. And so we, yeah, we wanna invite them to dance. And when it's clunky, we try to talk about it being clunky and see if we can, uh, make it a dance again, right? Make it a back and forth. Okay. This'll probably be my last question, uh, from Gabriel again.
Uh, could you imagine a situation where it might be appropriate to connect with an exile without first getting permission from a protector? Uh, only-- No, not really. Only if you're in the realm of, um, [00:18:00] uh, direct access where you say, "Okay, I've tried to help the client access this part, but they're so blended with it and can't unblend, so I am accessing that part directly, and I am confident in the degree of self-energy I'm in, and so I'm accessing it directly."
But even then, you'd wanna get permission from protectors or at least invite those protectors to be there as you access that part. So again, like the, the point of the model is not to quote, like get to the exile. It's not an exile hunt. But a lot of times it can feel like that. The, the point of the model is to invite parts forward, right?
And if you are in your loving self-energy, then parts will come forward. They will come out of the woodwork to meet self and to be with the self-energy of the therapist as well. So it's kind of a like, it's a posture thing, and when you have a posture that is inviting and full of self-energy, then parts are more inclined to come [00:19:00] forward.
Yeah. Versus me going in and trying to get somewhere and get to the parts, so to speak. So yeah. Good question and an important distinction. As I said at the beginning, if you wanna work with me, um, in a small group setting, then coming to Pathways to Self is the thing to do. You can join anytime, you can cancel anytime at johnclarketherapy.com/pathways.
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I look forward to talking to you in the next one, and, um, have a great week. See you later. Bye bye. Thanks for listening to another episode of Going Inside. If you enjoyed this [00:20:00] episode, please like and subscribe wherever you're listening or watching and share your favorite episode with a friend. You can follow me on Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok @johnclarktherapy and apply to work with me one-on-one at johnclarketherapy.com.
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