Why Therapists Struggle With Money (And How to Heal It) with Nadine Zumot
Why Therapists Struggle With Money (And How to Heal It)
with Nadine Zumot
Therapists are trained to hold space for others,but not for their own financial stories. In this powerful conversation, trauma-informed money coach Nadine Zumot joins John to unpack the hidden emotional wounds behind money shame, avoidance, and burnout. Together, they explore how trauma shapes our money behaviors, why fee-setting can feel “dirty,” and how somatic healing can help therapists finally feel in control of their finances.
🔑 3 Key Takeaways:
Money avoidance isn’t just procrastination — it’s often a trauma response. Learn how therapists’ unhealed wounds manifest in financial patterns like undercharging, overspending, or obsessing.
You can’t mindset your way out of money shame. Nadine shares how somatic tools, nervous system regulation, and parts work help make money feel safe again.
The stories we tell ourselves about “worthiness” and “charging too much” are rarely about math. Discover how healing your money story can unlock confidence, clarity, and peace.
👤 Guest: Nadine Zumot
Nadine Zumot is a trauma-informed money coach who helps people heal the money wounds left by childhood trauma and CPTSD. Her work blends nervous system regulation, somatic healing, and practical financial systems so money feels safe and empowering instead of stressful. She has helped clients go from debt, avoidance, and anxiety to building savings, creating freedom, and finally feeling in control of their finances.
💻 Website: saveamillioncents.com
🎧 Podcast: Unfuck Your Money
📩 Email: nadine@saveamillioncents.com
📸 Instagram: @nadinezumot
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Transcript:
Nadine Zumot: [00:00:00] With therapists, and it's exactly what you said. The first thing is that we've, we've never been told about money, right? So when we go into private practice, we kind of have to do things, even if we end up hiring an accountant or CPA or whatever it is, um, we kind of need to know what's going on in our, in our financial house.
So, um, it's a very big burden and we're not really trained for it.
John Clarke: Going Inside is a podcast on a mission to help people heal from trauma and reconnect with their authentic self. Join me trauma therapist John Clarke for guest interviews, real life therapy sessions, and soothing guided meditations. Whether you're navigating your own trauma, helping others heal from trauma, or simply yearning for a deeper understanding of yourself, going inside is your companion on the path to healing and self-discovery.
Download free guided meditations and apply to work with me one-on-one at johnclarketherapy.com. Thanks for being here. Let's dive in.
Nadine Zuma is a [00:01:00] trauma-informed money coach who helps people heal the money wounds left by childhood trauma and C-P-T-S-D. Her work blends nervous system regulation, somatic healing, and practical financial systems, so money feels safe and empowering instead of stressful. She has helped clients go from debt avoidance and anxiety to building savings, creating freedom, and finally feeling in control of their finances.
Uh, Nadine, thank you so much for being here. What else should people know about who you are and how you got here with this work?
Nadine Zumot: Well, thank you so much for having me. I'm very happy to be here today. Um, I don't know, I mean, I didn't get. To where I am with like how deep I went with money. Coincidentally, I, I stumbled upon that rabbit hole just because of my own experience, my own personal experience.
I've, uh, worked in finance for as long as I can remember, and, um, when I quit my day job to go into coaching [00:02:00] full-time, that's when all my, all my money skeletons. Showed up and I thought, you know, I initially thought, okay, I'm just gonna teach people how to budget and it'll be fine. And then it wasn't until I started going into like the healing work, inner child healing and doing the work for myself with other practitioners and then getting, you know, certified and trained, et cetera, et cetera, so that I can help others go as deep as.
I can take them.
John Clarke: Mm-hmm.
Nadine Zumot: Because money isn't, well, money is deeper than dollars, as we all know. And a lot of our baggage traumas experiences from childhood really impacts the way that we money, in the way that money can carry. A power over us. And sometimes these, um, experiences don't necessarily have to be related to money.
Sometimes people are like, why am I so messed up with money? I grew up okay. You know, like, [00:03:00] financially we're okay. And you know, when we kind of go back and have a look, it's usually something else that, um, kind of maybe I, if I were to generalize, it would be something that affected their sense of self-worth or sense of safety.
John Clarke: Yeah, let's keep going with that. So especially when we develop, we have, you know, chronic or repeated issues with. Money. Um mm-hmm. How, how do you help people kind of get to the root of the issue as well as address their actual money habits?
Nadine Zumot: So, um, there are many ways in which we actually tackle that together.
You know, it's a co-creative process between me and the client. And, um, what we usually do is that we see where they're at. You know, like I, I have a quiz on my website called the Money Archetype Quiz, and, um. I learned how to read money archetypes through the, uh, money Coaching Institute, and it's such a good read on where they're at right now.
You know, like when [00:04:00] they do this quiz, I'll be able to tell them, these are your behaviors and this is why you maybe behave like this. And suddenly their financial picture makes more sense because usually when people get to a state where they need my. Type of expertise or specialty? They've actually tried everything.
You know, they've tried budgeting, they've tried mindset work, they've tried manifestation, they've tried everything until they realize it's actually deeper than that. So, um, after we uncover where they're at and why this is happening, we go through something called their money story, which is pretty much just recounting, um, incidents from their past.
That, you know, can be related to money and sometimes things that they intuitively add to their document that they know it is not, you know, is not related directly to money, but intuitively they know that they have to add it in there and we go through it together and we kind of. [00:05:00] Talk it out and see if there's any somatic imprints in there.
And we do some somatic experiencing work on that. And um, after that what we do is that we look at their current financial picture. So they will look at their income, their expenses, if they have any debt, if there's any, you know, like what's going on, exactly what are their financial goals and I teach them how to, um.
Achieve or create or like realize actually their goals, whether it's financial or not, in a way that is suitable for their nervous system. Because as we both know, um, when we have a big goal, it's really exciting, but if it's too much for our nervous system's capacity and our capacity can become really impacted when we've had.
You know, traumas or experiences in our past. So our capacity becomes really like much smaller. So we actually use our goals, like I help the client use their goals as a way to start expanding their nervous system. And that's because there is [00:06:00] nothing more healing than actually setting a goal that you can achieve because that in itself is like proof to, to yourself that you're empowered, that you can actually do something for yourself.
So we kind of titrate the goals we. Take a goal and we just make it into very small sections and we see what we can achieve in the next five days. And then that kind of teaches them going forward in their lives without me, how to actually start setting goals that they can achieve that goals that like, that stretches them in a healthy way.
Um, and then we just. Go through and I teach them some more. Um, you know, just some ways to kind of regulate themselves when they're looking at their finances and yeah. And then it goes from there regard. Like, it just depends on what mm-hmm. The client needs at the time. So I hope, I hope this long answer answers your question.
John Clarke: Yeah. No long answers are good in my world. Um, the, um, avoidance is mm-hmm [00:07:00] a tremendous part of what. I do as a therapist to begin with. Okay. And, uh, you know, I, I talk to the clinicians I supervise and, and teach at my practice a lot about this. And so many layers of avoidance, whether it's, um, avoiding our internal experience or interceptive experience somatically.
Nadine Zumot: Mm-hmm.
John Clarke: Like being in, in my body or embodied can be too much.
Nadine Zumot: Yeah.
John Clarke: Um, and there's many good reasons for that. Yes. Um. Avoiding things psychologically, like having certain thoughts or thinking about my fears. Right. Um, and then avoiding external things.
Nadine Zumot: Mm-hmm.
John Clarke: And of course, for money can, it can kind of be all the above, right?
Nadine Zumot: Mm-hmm.
John Clarke: So even like if I don't look at it, it doesn't exist. And that's exactly, A lot of people are, in my case, like I, I help a lot of therapists in private practice with both like their clinic work and their business side. And so there's a tremendous amount of avoidance around that too. And so for being.
When you're self-employed, um, of course, yeah. [00:08:00] Uh, it brings up so much of our stuff, and especially avoidance around money and really shame about money, right? Mm-hmm. If I look at it and it's worse than I thought, I'll feel bad. Mm-hmm. And so, of course I don't wanna feel bad. So then I go do something that feels good or I spend in order to soothe mm-hmm.
Or whatever it is, right?
Nadine Zumot: Mm-hmm.
John Clarke: And continue to avoid.
Nadine Zumot: Yeah.
John Clarke: Yeah. And that just perpetuates the cycle.
Nadine Zumot: Yeah. Yeah. That's a cycle that I'm very familiar with. Um, I tend to go from. Um, well, I'm the opposite with money. With money. I have other avoidant avoidant tendencies in other parts of my life, but with money, I'm actually the opposite side of the pendulum where I'm, I obsess.
So, um, I tend to become very obsessive with money of like just nickel and diming and just, uh, calculating every cent in dollar and, you know, being in a, such, such a big fight response about it. Like, oh, what. Whether it's for myself or for my, whoever is else is managing money with [00:09:00] me at the time. But avoidance is a very big one, especially, uh, with artists, with creatives, with, um, with practitioners.
John Clarke: Mm-hmm.
Nadine Zumot: With therapists, and it's exactly what you said. The first thing is that we've, we've never been told about money, right? So when we go into private practice, we kind of have to. Do things, even if we end up hiring an accountant or a CPA or whatever it is, um, we kind of need to know what's going on in our, in our financial house.
So, um, it's a very big burden and we're not really trained for it. Just like we're not trained in marketing, right? Like we are trained in, in the actual, like, uh, in, in therapy or whatever it is. We're trained in that thing. But then there's like other aspects of the business that comes that are like, oh shit.
Why? Why, you know, like marketing and finance and all that stuff.
John Clarke: Yeah. Well, it. Although it can be distressing at first. Mm-hmm. And sometimes I'll sit down with my business coaching [00:10:00] clients to just look at their p and l, their profit and loss with them. Mm-hmm. Um, oftentimes for the first time in months or ever or ever.
Right. And go, if we can kind of get through some of the activation that this brings, um, and the avoidance and the shame and all of that, you can eventually reach the other side of it, which is you can have great relief and peace. Mm-hmm. And knowing objectively. How your business is doing. Mm-hmm. Like these are the actual numbers.
This, these numbers, although they don't encompass everything, they do generally reflect the health of your business, right? Mm-hmm. And if the point of being in business is to keep more money, then you generate, um, then like, here's how well your business is doing that or not doing that. Mm-hmm. Sometimes they're pleasantly surprised and they go, oh, I'm doing even better than I felt keyword felt.
Other times it's like. I had a feeling I was doing bad and this is way worse. Right? Or what? Whatever. Right. Yeah. Or they've just, I haven't looked at it for nine months and uh, just, you [00:11:00] know, now I have to face it. And what will that mean?
Nadine Zumot: Yeah, that's exactly, exactly why we need to know where we're starting from.
Yeah, because we need to know what we're working with. But that's usually the most difficult part of the journey of actually sitting down and doing it. Yes. And there's no shame in asking for help, you know, even if it's a friend, even if it's your spouse, just asking for somebody to be there with you and kind of be there as support, you know, emotional support, because it is a.
It is a survival thing when, when we look at our numbers, especially as you know, when we do work that we love because like you said, it, it reflects the health of our business and it reflects our worth. It reflects our value. It re it, it really is tied to so much, even like deeper than survival. It's just like existential sometimes.
John Clarke: Yeah. Well, yeah, money itself. Can represent our actual [00:12:00] survival. Mm-hmm. Like, will I have enough?
Nadine Zumot: Yeah.
John Clarke: Right. And people always talk about like scarcity versus abundance and mm-hmm. You know, entrepreneurial circles and, um, yeah. So many of us have fears and carry core wounding around not having enough, right?
Yeah. Or even generational trauma around times in which, where the, you know, for the family, uh, there, there wasn't enough. There literally wasn't. Or there was a tremendous lack, and that's for many of us, it's like that's inside of us somewhere.
Nadine Zumot: Definitely. Yeah. Or we're not good enough, no matter what we do.
We're not good. We're not enough,
jonh clarke: As therapists, we hold space for so many. But who's holding space for us? If you're craving deeper healing and more powerful tools for your clients, I wanna invite you to my free webinar on Internal Family Systems Therapy. IFS changed my life and the way I practice. It helped me move through burnout, reconnect with my authentic self, and show up more fully for my clients and for myself.
In this webinar, I'm gonna walk you through what [00:13:00] IFS is and why it works. A simple tool that you can use right away and how to bring this work into your practice, even if you're just beginning. This is for therapists ready to go deeper. Join us now with the link in the description.
,
yeah. There was this, um, have you ever read it? It is called The Big Leap.
Nadine Zumot: Um, it's been on my Amazon card for years, but no, I haven't read it, but I kind of have, get the gist of what, what he's talking about. Yeah.
jonh clarke: It's something to, um, you know, and for, for folks listening, it's uh, it's about what he calls upper limit challenges.
Nadine Zumot: Mm-hmm.
jonh clarke: Which is essentially like our hangups around success. Right. And, and parts of us carry fears around. What would it mean if I were actually successful? Yeah. And I find this to be very true and I've had to deal with a lot of the stuff on my own over the years of like, um, yeah, my fears around being successful or what if I were to become wealthy, what would happen?
And for a lot of people, it's. It would alienate me. Mm-hmm. People wouldn't love [00:14:00] me anymore. They would think, who is this guy? Or who does he think he is? Or whatever it might be. Yeah. So for a lot of people it actually represents like potential loss of connection.
Nadine Zumot: Yeah. I so will resonate with that.
John Clarke: Money is gonna, you know, grant me more love and connection in my life.
It's all, yeah. Represents the opposite. Strangely. Even if it would represent
Nadine Zumot: safety. So it's, yeah,
it's quite complex because. For me, I grew up as the oldest child and I was always the problem solver, the fixer, the everything. You know, I'm like taking, taking charge of everything. And I know for me that success equals I don't have any more problems to solve.
So who would I be?
John Clarke: Mm. Wow.
Nadine Zumot: Even though I know, because I see my friends who have, you know, just kind of leaped, I see that they have other sets of problems. Yeah. So I know that, but like in, for me, inside of me, so interesting, I always have this thing of like, oh, no, no, no, no, no. I don't want that. Because then who, [00:15:00] what problems will I solve?
I won't have any problems. If I don't have any problems, then, then that's the end of the world. I'll die. You know? Yeah.
John Clarke: Yeah. Exactly. Well, yeah. How, how would I be? Useful to other people. Right. And if, if my main way of getting and maintaining connection with, with my caregivers, for instance mm-hmm. Was to do that.
Mm-hmm. To be the helpful little family therapist, which is a case for Yeah. Many therapists, myself included. Growing up then, like not doing that represents something incredibly dangerous, right? Yes. And then you have this other complex for therapists around like. Kind of being a martyr about it, you know, and just like, yeah, you know, you've gotta pay your dues.
You shouldn't charge too much. Like, there's all of this kind of like self oppressing, collapsing stuff that we do around, um, what it means to even charge a fee to help
Nadine Zumot: mm-hmm.
John Clarke: People with their feelings and their trauma and all this stuff.
Nadine Zumot: Or raise your prices. I had someone yesterday told me, raise your raise prices.
Uh. [00:16:00] Everybody's paying me more. And she had this grimace on her face. I'm like, yeah, I, I see your face. She goes, I feel dirty. I'm like, okay. Fascinating. I hear you, Maria.
John Clarke: Why does that feel dirty right here?
Nadine Zumot: Why does that feel dirty? You know?
And people are tipping her even like they're tipping her 50% of her fee, which is saying that she's not charging enough, but she's not happy with it.
John Clarke: Yeah,
Nadine Zumot: yeah.
John Clarke: Right.
Nadine Zumot: It's quite complex.
You know, and, and like what's interesting is I think you can approach that in one of two ways. One, you can think like, we have to kind of heal some of the wounding around like, my not good enough stuff. Yeah. Or my fears of being a burden. The other, on the other hand, and this is maybe at least with the fee example, my preference is, um, raise the fees and be with the discomfort.
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, and then your beliefs. Your kind of self-concept will in a way sometimes catch up with that, right? Yeah. Yeah. If I raise my fee and go, gosh, what if there was a [00:17:00] world in which I could charge X and quote, get away with it. Right? Get away with it. Yeah. Before anybody finds out, even finds out, I get in trouble, right?
And someone calls me to the principal's office, right? Mm-hmm. Then I raise my fees, um, and people willingly say yes to it and go. Sounds good. Sounds good. Yeah. Sounds good. Right. And then I kind of grow into that fee, right? I kind of grow into it and go, um, yeah, it's worth at least this much, if not many multitudes, more than I'm even currently pricing it, which is for therapists, just based on some random BS or based on what my neighbor is charging, which is a terrible way to price your business.
It is, it is. You know, and like, it's just so emotional, right? Or like, I see what other people are charging and I charge 20% less. You know, it's like. That's a very common way for therapists to charge, or based on what insurance has decided we're worth. Mm-hmm. Which is like $91, oh my god. For an hour. And then therapists are seeing 40 clients a week and still can't, um, you know, go out to a restaurant.
[00:18:00] Gosh. The emotional toll, she's, I call this, there's like, if you imagine a pendulum, you've got your resentment number. And then on the other side of the pendulum is your, oh my God, what, what do I have to do to justify this fee kind of number, that overwhelm number. You know, like it kind of goes between like, oh, I don't wanna be paid.
I don't wanna work if I'm, I'm being paid this peanuts versus Oh shit, I have to prove myself kind of thing.
John Clarke: No, that's over. Yeah. Overperform right. Or over deliver. Right. And change how hard I work as a therapist because I'm charging this money, which is. Pretty, pretty backwards. But, and the resentment thing is real too, right?
Of course. Yeah. Where therapists have that resentment, um, and yet it's really their fault, right? That they agree to that fee in the first place. I mean,
Nadine Zumot: I mean, it's, it's their capacity of course. You know, and sometimes you wanna be nice and you wanna kind of make your work accessible, blah, blah, blah. But then you get paid that you are like, oh.
That [00:19:00] doesn't excite me. I, I wish I gave it for free. This, this number is just gonna go to taxes. What have I done?
John Clarke: Yeah. And that might be better, right? I mean, that, I think bringing intentionality to everything. And so for some of the therapists I work with, if it makes sense to charge your full fee for folks that can pay it or maybe mm-hmm.
And then have a, that is the thing that enables you to have sliding scale or do pro bono work. Yeah. Or say, this part of my practice is gonna be focused on. Access for people who wouldn't otherwise have access to a therapist like me. Yeah. Or a specialist like me or whatever. I think that's wonderful. We do that in our practice.
That's practice that as trauma specialists, but it's intentional. Right. And it's not from a place of resentment or fear or. Scarcity, right? Mm-hmm. So I think the whole thing is about intention.
Nadine Zumot: It is about intention, but also, I don't know if you encounter that with the practitioners you work with, but I work with a lot of, uh, business owners and you know what you were saying, that [00:20:00] scarcity versus abundance, that is like such a, a norm in in business circles.
I do have people that overcharge because they're abundant, you know, I'm like, you're shooting yourself in the foot, first of all. You don't, you're not standing behind that price. That's why you're not selling. You're telling me you're not making money. It's because your price is too high for you. You know?
John Clarke: Fascinating.
Nadine Zumot: Yeah. It's so fascinating because sometimes, um, they're like, I'm abundant. So, you know, they just put this crazy number, like, well, I don't know, $5,000 for a session or whatever, you know? If, if you stand behind it and you like you somatically are behind it and you're good with it, it'll pass.
But if you're putting it and you're hiding behind the pillow, like under the bed and you're like, oh shit, are they gonna notice? Of course you're not gonna sell.
John Clarke: Yeah. That, that's actually fascinating. I think there has, yeah. There has to be some congruence or alignment with our fees. Mm-hmm. And feeling good about this [00:21:00] exchange.
I mean, I, I don't want to get too out there with it, but like. If you think about what money is Mm. Or that money represents an energy exchange. Mm-hmm. Right? Um, and then again, for therapists, that's a very convenient parallel, right? Because we're exchanging Yes. Our money, our our, our, our, our energy, our expertise, our presence, our time, our expertise of many things, right?
Mm-hmm.
But then again, it's like a lot of times for my, uh, the clinicians that, that work with me, it's like, um. Yeah, it's like what are the, is the client paying me to be really valuable or like say some really epic stuff and be the expert or to be present Or if I like go five minutes over the session, you know, like, am I adding more value if I like just let the session bleed over, you know, for two minutes.
That was me
Nadine Zumot: in the beginning. Oh my God. That was the queen of like 30 minutes over and I'm like, I'm such a martyr.
I'm the best
John Clarke: Trying to earn your fee.
Nadine Zumot: Yeah.
John Clarke: And [00:22:00] not get yelled at, right? Like, yeah.
Nadine Zumot: Yeah. We treated the same. And the thing is with that is that you burn out because Okay, say you're running over 20, 30 minutes with every client.
John Clarke: Yeah.
Nadine Zumot: I know this sounds trivial, but the housework is actually behind. And, okay, this is something that I see a lot and I just wanna mention it because it's. Kind of like funny. So you go to the, to the, to, to the store. I'm trying to like Americanize my words shops. You go to the store, you buy a bunch of groceries and you have every intention of cooking yourself meals and not ordering, takeout, et cetera.
But then you are have this like martyr like energy in your practitioner. And you're giving, and you're giving. And even if you're not going over, you're just giving everything and you're just overdoing it and then you're exhausted at the end of the day. The dishes are not done. The house is a mess, and you look at your fridge and you're like.
I don't have energy for this. So you order out, that is another way you're bleeding money. I see that a lot. And then the groceries go to the, to [00:23:00] to, to the rubbish bin because they go off. So I actually had this experience myself, and I see it a lot. And I know it sounds really silly, but it adds up. It really adds up.
John Clarke: Yeah. It doesn't sound silly at all. It sounds very realistic. Mm-hmm. And I'm envisioning. A lot of our listeners, especially the therapist just nodding their head and being like, yep. Guilty. Mm-hmm. Um, and also there, there's also, um, and I hear this a lot or so, we, and we also work with a lot of, um, addictive processes in our practice.
So clients who, and I hear in the Bay Area, Silicon Valley, so you have people that work. Incredible hours and shifts and are just, you know, here to prove their worth and their specialness mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And their startup or whatever. Mm-hmm. A lot of clients who go, well, I earned it. I deserved it today, so I'm gonna have Yeah.
I deserve this. Mm-hmm. Or get the DoorDash or the whatever. And that kind of keeps you perpetually in this cycle of like, I only get [00:24:00] DoorDash if five. Deserve it, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Someone told me like, deserve is the most violent word in the English language. Um, but it's, it's quite violent actually.
Yeah, you're right. If you, if you have that type of relationship, right? Or for instance, if I were to have that kinda relationship, um, imposed upon my, my five-year-old daughter, like, it's gonna feel really chaotic, right?
Nadine Zumot: Mm-hmm.
John Clarke: Like
based on my output, I get pizza or not pizza. Then it becomes so emotional.
Yeah. Pizza becomes really emotional and food becomes emotional or money or whatever it is. Yeah. And it just feels really high stakes and very conditional.
Nadine Zumot: Yeah. And that's probably also the, the, the root, or it could be one of the roots of why money is so emotional is because a lot of times it's being with health from us because we're not good, or we didn't do our chores versus being bestowed upon us when we're good or when we get a good grade.
That kind of also. Kind of couples it with like mm-hmm. Our deservedness or are we good enough? Are we not good enough? And that can trickle into our work [00:25:00] life later on as adults.
John Clarke: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's fascinating. I mean, I, I think this thing with therapists is, um. This idea of like quote, playing small again.
Nadine Zumot: Mm-hmm.
John Clarke: Like I just charge an amount that I'm not gonna get in trouble for whatever I can quote, get away with. Mm-hmm. Um, so I'm very interested in that whole psychology, you know, and how we can help people Yeah. Heal from that and make practical changes to their finances, in this case, their business finances.
But in my experience, most of the time, business finances for an entrepreneur reflect their. The same habits with their personal finances, right? Mm-hmm.
Nadine Zumot: Oh yeah, definitely. It's the same books. It's a reflection of, of one of the other. Um, I would say like for me, for my clients, what really works is just going slow, you know, having that big number.
Just I was talking earlier about like how to set goals that [00:26:00] suit your nervous system. Just feel into it, you know, set a number. See how you physically react to it and then build upon it 10, $10 at a time until you reach it in a way that doesn't really like freak you out.
John Clarke: Hmm.
Nadine Zumot: In plain English.
John Clarke: That's good.
Yeah. I mean, I mean, I also, I think about like relativity and money a lot and how
Nadine Zumot: mm-hmm.
John Clarke: A certain dollar amount can look or feel like a lot something.
Nadine Zumot: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
John Clarke: Whether it's like,
Nadine Zumot: mm-hmm.
John Clarke: How much is a cup of coffee these days? Right? Yeah. It's like, I don't know, is it $3 or 5 75 plus tax, and so it's like that was $7 out the door, right?
Yeah. Or something that's more expensive and you're like, well, there's no way this trip could be. $10,000. Right. And then yeah, like we, we just don't know what things cost.
Nadine Zumot: It's all relative. You're right.
John Clarke: Like it's all relative.
Nadine Zumot: Take a hundred bucks. If you were to buy a plane ticket to go [00:27:00] to Europe from the states for a hundred bucks, that's cheap.
John Clarke: Yeah.
Nadine Zumot: Right.
But if you go to a fast food shop restaurant and you pay a hundred bucks for. A burger, uh, no. Right. Yeah. It's the, it's the same amount of money, but it's what, what, you know is, is worth it. Yeah. It's not worth it. I have a lot of clients that are so okay with spending a thousand bucks on a handbag, a pair of shoes, but then when it comes to, like, when they ask me how much I charge, they're like, oh my God, no, that's too much.
I'm like, Hmm. Okay. Keep doing what you're doing. No worries.
John Clarke: Yeah. Well, yeah. This is what I'm saying, right? It's very emotional in that way. Mm-hmm. And also as therapists, we decide for our clients how much is too much.
Nadine Zumot: Yeah, that's, that's that martyrdom, you know, like, yes. You know, we are kind of like managing their wallets.
Like, yes, no, I, I feel bad charging that. What if, what if they can't eat? You know? You're like, uh, yeah, I'm, I just wanna excited for them. Yeah. I, I, I do wanna believe [00:28:00] that the clients that are attracted to my work or that can come and work together have that agency or, or that mind of like. Being, you know, being responsible and knowing their thing, and I don't have to manage their lives.
John Clarke: Yeah. We, we end up in infantilizing, our uhhuh, you know, clients by, by accident. Mm-hmm.
Nadine Zumot: By accident. From caring. Assuming that from, from caring, from caring, right. Yeah.
John Clarke: Assuming that our fees or services are an imposition or whatever it might be, therefore I should charge less. I mean, there's just so many stories we.
Tell ourselves along with this stuff. Yeah. Same thing when it goes to, comes to um, paying employees, you know, things like that. Mm-hmm. There's a lot of therapists that just have tremendous hangups around that and fears of being seen as like greedy or capitalistic or whatever it might be. Yeah. So it just shows up everywhere.
But emotion is a big part of it and a lot of people who are operating out of fear, right. Or they would agonize over the $5 [00:29:00] coffee or the $3 coffee. Depending on where you live in the, in the world. Yeah. And then, um, to your point, like spend a thousand dollars on, you know, a pair of shoes or something.
Yeah. And it's just like, it's really hard to find much reasoning with within that, but it can be emotional or it can be when I'm like, sad I shop, or I eat, or I do whatever, right? Mm-hmm. We just, we kind of self-medicate a lot with money. Yeah. Self-soothe.
Nadine Zumot: Yeah.
John Clarke: We, we don't, we just keep not looking at it.
Right. And then people Yeah. Yeah.
Nadine Zumot: I think what confuses me is that there's still people that are not connecting their finances with their emotions. I think that's, that just baffles me. Um, I feel like there needs to be more awareness about that. That like your emotions have everything to do with how you money, how you manage your money, how you feel about your money, and especially how you earn it and how you spend it.
John Clarke: Yeah. Well, [00:30:00] mo fear is a big piece of it. And so a lot of people that operate just out of fear
Nadine Zumot: mm-hmm.
John Clarke: Versus sitting down and like, I remember when, uh, I worked with a number of financial advisors over the years for me and my, my wife and stuff, and like, um, I remember most recently the, the one we worked with who is like.
Truly, I think kind of a holistic financial plan or really sat down with on with us and looked at yes. Not only like the current facts and the projections and all these pieces, but also like dreaming together. Mm-hmm. A family and a couple. Mm-hmm. What do you want? Mm-hmm. Right. It's like a want is kind of like the opposite of fear.
It's like, well, we know what we don't want, right? Yeah. But to really sit down and go here, here's what we want. And then for her to help align, like, here's what would need to happen financially too. To achieve that want is actually like, feels healthier and more like optimistic than, yeah. Fear that's foreign.
Nadine Zumot: Especially post post trauma. Like when we talk about post-traumatic growth, I've, [00:31:00] I've just had a very big medical trauma. Thank God I recovered from that, but I don't know what I want, you know, like after we go through something traumatizing or maybe, you know, small things. Just kind of accumulate. You don't know what you want and for someone to ask you what do you want, that can be so liberating and also scary of like, oh, I, I can want things.
I don't have to just survive. I can actually want things. I can actually, I. Listen to parts of me that have a desire for something new as opposed to just the survivalist parts of me that are just scanning and hypervigilant, because that can take over, you know, that can take over our lives, especially when it comes to money.
Like all we need to do is just survive, pay off the debt, and just be okay. And then somebody comes and asks you like, what do you want to do with your money? You're like, oh, hang on a second. There's that. Oh, okay. And sometimes that itself can be [00:32:00] very stretchy.
John Clarke: Well, I, yeah, and that's a fascinating thing, like this kind of like permission, so to speak, to like dream or
Nadine Zumot: mm-hmm.
John Clarke: Again, I, I'll tell my coaching clients, like, if you're waiting for permission to raise your fees, um, it's never coming or no, if you need it from me, I'm giving that permission right now to do it. Yeah. And don't be sorry about it. Um, and, and yet a lot of times it's like I'm just, wait again. I'm just waiting for.
Some sort of like, uh, permission to arrive or,
Nadine Zumot: or reminder, you know, somebody can remind us that there's life out there and you can actually do something that you like for yourself. It's okay. It's okay to want things. It's okay to go for them. I'm telling this to myself right now.
John Clarke: Well, that's powerful.
Yeah. Mm-hmm. And I, I don't know how many of us received that, that message as a child, you know, and I, gosh, I didn't. I didn't, they didn't either. Yeah. I mean, uh, obviously the, you know, one of the [00:33:00] first things that came up with me, and, and I'm really thankful my family was really supportive of me being a therapist.
And also one of the first things was like, also, you know, they don't make much money, right? Like mm-hmm.
Nadine Zumot: That, okay, that, that, that put down, that it, that instilled that belief in you. Okay,
John Clarke: great. That's in there, right? Yeah. Compared to a doctor or a lawyer or a architect or what, whatever it is, right? Mm-hmm.
So there, there's a lot of that. That's. Just naturally in there and kind of implied it around like,
Nadine Zumot: oh yeah, me too. I come from an Arabic family, and it was implied that if you don't, you're not a doctor. I come from like,
John Clarke: yeah,
Nadine Zumot: my mom's an architect. My father is a civil engineer. My uncle's a doctor, blah, blah, blah.
It's a dentist, and if you're not these things, then too bad to sad, you know?
John Clarke: Totally.
Nadine Zumot: Yeah. It, you know, it was really implied of like, yeah, you kind of need to go and, you know, pursue big degrees so that you can be successful and not need us anymore. Yeah. That's the part of like, oh my God, I don't need, I don't wanna need them [00:34:00] anymore.
John Clarke: Yeah. Hyperfocus on. Independence and autonomy and, mm-hmm. And individualism.
Nadine Zumot: Yeah. It's, there's, I don't know, it just crossed my mind. I, I really wanna like, just talking about like having desires and goals. There's one piece that I kind of wanna talk about, if that's okay. Mm-hmm. Just small one. It's just about like, when we set a goal for ourselves, whether it's a financial goal or a fitness goal or whatever it is, I like to kind of like slow it down and be kind of discerning of.
Am I setting this goal to run away from something or am I setting it to, um, to, you know, kind of be happy or fulfill a desire or grow because. I have, I get stuck in that trap a lot of, like, I want this thing and I go for it, but I just realized I'm, I'm in a fight or flight mode the whole time. And that's because I set that goal from a place of like, I wanna get away from pain.
I want to prove that I'm good. I wanna da da da. As [00:35:00] opposed to like a gentler way of, I want this because I love it, or because I, I wanna grow, or whatever it is. And that kind of puts you in a more. Maybe a regulated state as you pursue it. Mm-hmm. Which really changes the journey towards the outcome and really enjoyment of the outcome.
Because then if you're going at it from a fight or flight mode, you get to it and you're like, okay, what's next? That's not good enough. What's next? I just wanted to kind of just mention this because I feel it's important personally.
John Clarke: I, I think it's huge. Um, this came up years ago when I was working with the client around, um, his motivations for growing his company.
Nadine Zumot: Mm-hmm.
John Clarke: And he said something to the effect of like, I just wanna see the other guys lose, or like, I want vengeance. Yeah. And the, the metaphor that came to mind in that moment, I said, so it's kind of like what I ended up calling dirty fuel. Mm. Um, which is like, it might kind of get you there, it might get you these short term kind of gains, um, but long term.
It [00:36:00] won't. And it's also really bad for your system. It'll burn you out. And at some point if it'll burn you out, and if you do that, if you're successful in that, you're still gonna be faced with this same damn question, which is like, now what? Now what
Nadine Zumot: am I good? Am I good enough yet?
John Clarke: Yeah. Am I good enough now?
Right. Yeah. And so that that question and that turning point was pivotal for him and for a lot of my clients around, to your point, what am I running from? What am I running toward? Yeah, exactly. And knowing a lot of us are operating from. Core wounding.
Nadine Zumot: Mm-hmm.
John Clarke: And at least that's how a lot of us get started in something.
Mm-hmm. Even people that are like, I'm gonna approve X, Y, and z, I'm gonna prove to mom and dad that I'm something, you know, I'm special. Yeah. I'm whatever. Or to people in high school, you know, that I'm actually someone. Okay, great. And then you do that. And then,
Nadine Zumot: then no one cares. 'cause no one's paying attention to you.
John Clarke: Yeah. And then you still gotta face yourself. So it's like, yeah, you might do that. Right. But, um. Having a larger purpose for your life and work to me is. [00:37:00] Really where things start to click. Mm-hmm. And where when I'm literally aligned with like my, my, my gifts, my, my purpose, um, all those things. I can bring my creativity to work.
Then the money often follows if I have a good financial plan. Yeah. Yeah. You know, charging fair rates and what, whatever, all these pieces. But, um, a lot of people, there's a tremendous lack of alignment, whether it's with their actual money, behaviors and or their actual, how they're spending their lives, right?
Mm-hmm. Or to rationalize working a job that you absolutely hate. You have to buy a $80,000 car just to mm-hmm. Prove yourself just to be in
Nadine Zumot: the club kind of thing.
John Clarke: Just, yeah. And just to reduce the dissonance over, like, I actually hate, you know. Retail, but I'm like high up in retail, whatever, like just rationalize
Nadine Zumot: or that deserve word of like, I have a shitty Jo job, so I deserve blah, blah, I deserve this, I deserve that.
And you end up just spending all your money on shit you don't want, you know?
John Clarke: Yeah. That's the I can dream.
Nadine Zumot: So unfortunately [00:38:00] we are, um, it's actually. More. It's spread across the world, not just America. Oh, no, it's contagious. It's everywhere. It's everywhere. I've lived in Europe, in Australia, Phil, in the Middle East.
It's, it's the same, unfortunately, across the globe.
John Clarke: Yeah. Yep. I'm trying to face our woundedness or not face it and yeah, fill some hole. Right. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Well, um, we've covered a lot of ground in a short period of time, Nadine, but um, yeah, it's been great to chat with you and also opened up a lot of threads that probably need further exploring Of course.
So, um, but that being said, yeah, let us know a little more about exactly how you help. People and then how people can find out more about, um, your services and, and we'll put links to everything, you know in the episode.
Nadine Zumot: Sure. So, I host a podcast called, I don't know, can I swear? Because the name of the podcast has swear word in it.
My plus my podcast is called Unfuck Your Money. So you can, you know, kind of go into that. There's lots of resources in [00:39:00] there. Um, my website is Save a Million Cents. Dot com. Um, I've got my, all my offerings in there. I do one-on-one coaching, and I do have some programs like self-paced programs. My latest one is called Empowered Spender, which is specially designed for people that self-soothe through spending money.
And, um, it goes into parts work and it goes into all that stuff to kind of approach money from a more balanced, regulated way as opposed to from a wounded place. Um, what else? I'm on Instagram sometimes. Depends on where I'm at in my life. Yeah. I'm very wishy-washy with that, but yeah.
John Clarke: How triggered how triggered you are?
Yeah.
Nadine Zumot: Oh, for sure.
John Clarke: But i'm off it right now. You're off it. I get lucky you to be activate by it, but
Nadine Zumot: I'm very, it really activates. Yeah, I think like how my clients get activated by money and then they find me, I get activated by marketing, but not any marketing. Yeah, it has to be. It's Instagram like I'm fine on my podcast, but like
John Clarke: Interesting.
Yeah.
Nadine Zumot: Anyway, so you can [00:40:00] find me on Instagram, but I'm elusive, but my podcast is more solid and so is my website. It's always up to date.
John Clarke: Nice. Yeah. That's great. Well, thank you again for, for being here and for um, thanks for having me covering such a universal topic with us. And, um, yeah. Um, I really appreciate your time and, um, hope you keep in touch.
Nadine Zumot: Thank you. Thank you so much.
John Clarke: You're welcome.
Thanks for listening to another episode of Going Inside. If you enjoyed this episode, please like and subscribe wherever you're listening or watching, and share your favorite episode with a friend. You can follow me on Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok at johnclarketherapy and apply to work with me one-on-one at johnclarketherapy.com.
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