Somatic Work, Scope Creep & Staying Ethical with Danica Harris
Somatic Work, Scope Creep & Staying Ethical with Danica Harris
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What happens when a trauma therapist steps outside the traditional therapy model to create a more embodied, flexible, and client-centered way of healing?
In this powerful conversation, somatic practitioner Dr. Danica Harris joins John Clarke to explore what it really means to heal from complex trauma without retraumatization. Together, they unpack the difference between therapy and somatic coaching, why retelling the trauma story isn’t necessary for healing, and how to work at the pace of the nervous system rather than the urgency of our parts.
Whether you’re a therapist, coach, or healer, this episode invites you to rethink the boundaries of your work—and what it truly means to be with your clients in their healing.
3 Key Takeaways
1. Why hearing the trauma story might actually get in the way of healing — and what to do instead.
2. How to bring somatic and energetic work into your practice without crossing ethical lines.
3. The surprising reason slowing down can create the biggest breakthroughs for your clients (and for you).
👤 About Dr. Danica Harris
Dr. Danica Harris is a Somatic Experiencing Practitioner and complex trauma expert, working internationally as a coach, facilitator, presenter, and educator. Trained as a Counseling Psychologist, Danica prioritizes helping folks heal so they can live more embodied and empowered lives.
If you’re seeking deep healing, check out her upcoming retreat:
Healing Your Way Home – Dallas, TX | Nov 6–10
Connect with Danica
IG / FB / Threads / Pinterest: @theempoweredtherapist
IG / FB / Threads / TikTok (Practice):@empoweredhealingdallas
📧 Contact: drharris@empoweredhealingdallas.com
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Transcript:
Danica Harris: [00:00:00] And what I'll always say to people on the consult call and in first few sessions is I wanna hear anything you want to say. However, I do not need to hear the details of your trauma to help you heal. Yeah, that's, and I find that people, as soon as I say that, people system settle.
John Clarke: Going Inside is a podcast on a mission to help people heal from trauma and reconnect with their authentic self. Join me trauma therapist John Clarke for guest interviews, real life therapy sessions, and soothing guided meditations. Whether you're navigating your own trauma, helping others heal from trauma, or simply yearning for a deeper understanding of yourself, going inside is your companion on the path to healing and self-discovery.
Download free guided meditations and apply to work with me one-on-one at johnclarketherapy.com. Thanks for being here. Let's dive in.
Dr. Danica Harris is a somatic experiencing practitioner and complex trauma expert working internationally as a coach, facilitator, presenter, and educator. Trained as a counseling psychologist, Danica [00:01:00] Pro. Uh, prioritizes helping folks heal so they can live more embodied and empowered lives. She has an upcoming Somatic focus retreat called Healing Your Way Home, which will take place in Dallas, Texas from November 6th to 10th.
Spots are still available if you're looking for an intensive healing experience. Danica, thank you for, um, being here. Yeah. What else should people know about who you are and how you got here?
Danica Harris: Yeah, thanks for having me. Um, yeah. Oh gosh. What should people know? Well, I was trained as, as you mentioned, trained as a counseling psychologist and, um, really consider myself someone who has dedicated my life's work to understanding, working with healing, helping folks heal from complex trauma.
Uh, I'm also very passionate about body-based healing, so I think that. When we experience trauma, we get disconnected from our bodies. And so I'm all about like just helping people be with themselves as much as they can be. Um, and that's kind of the work that I do with folks. And then I [00:02:00] also, uh, co-own a group practice.
And so one of my greatest passions is like helping support therapist entrepreneurs and therapists who are trying to get their feet wet in private practice and, um, make a career for themselves outside of some of the systems that we're kind of like gr naturally taught to gravitate towards.
John Clarke: Hmm. Nice. Um, and, uh, so is your current, um, the way you practice, is it as a practitioner or a coach, or are you also licensed therapist?
Danica Harris: Yeah, I'm not, I'm not working under a therapy license.
John Clarke: Mm-hmm.
Danica Harris: Uh, any longer. So yeah, I practice as a somatic coach and then primarily like in a. A administrative role with my practice. I do a lot of my work there. And then Okay. Um, with the Empowered Therapist, kinda my second business, I do, yeah. I run like a, a coaching program for therapist entrepreneurs and that takes up a good chunk of my time too.
John Clarke: Nice. Yeah. Okay. Uh, I'm, I'm mostly, yeah. Curious about that journey or just [00:03:00] how you kind of think about the licensure practitioner coach piece? 'cause it's a really, um. Common discussion, you know, around Yeah. Uh, among practitioners
Danica Harris: for sure. Yes. Yeah.
John Clarke: Can be a can of worms too, but, you know.
Danica Harris: Yeah. Um, uh, it is quite a discussion.
I know folks will feel very heated one way or another a lot of the time. Yeah. But, um, and for myself, it's,
John Clarke: which is an opportunity to, you know, regulate.
Danica Harris: Yes, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. For myself, I feel like, um, pretty. Pretty open to like what someone else's professional journey needs to look like for them. Um, my kind of a brief rundown of my trajectory to this stage is, um, when I first graduated high school, I went to esthetician school and, um, actually still carry that license to this day.
So I learned how to do facials and waxing and makeup and all that. And I used to say that like. When I was applying to graduate school, uh, so when I, I went back to school in my [00:04:00] early twenties and then went to graduate school in my late twenties. And, um, I used to say like, oh, I used to help people from the outside in, and now I'm helping people from the inside out.
Mm-hmm. And, um, I think that like my way of engaging with people already felt like it, like didn't neatly fit in the, like, therapeutic box. Like as, as constrained by. Licensure and, you know, board standards and stuff like that. And that's not to say I'm like throwing ethics out the window, of course not like, you know, trained psychologist.
So I, I absolutely know how I need to show up with folks. Um, but I think like, having that init, I say that like where I started 'cause it actually feels like it's really important that like I learned to engage with people in this like one-on-one intimate way where I could just like be with them and their whole story.
And, uh, I mean I think that's part of what it like that that career served me well because. I got to talk to people and learn a lot about people. And then I went and got this formal training and then practiced for, you know, a number of years. Uh, and then [00:05:00] in 2020 decided I wanted to do somatic experiencing training.
And I think that to me felt like this piece where I could like actually bring both of my past. Professional lives together. And I just started noticing like, I wanna do more, more touch work with clients. I wanna, um, do energy work at times. I wanna work outside of the talk therapy domain, outside of the diagnostic system.
Um, that just felt really important to me. I was only really seeing folks with complex trauma and I didn't wanna work in the medical model where I like. Needed to prescribe or diagnose someone and, and talk about prescription meds that they're on and stuff like that. And that's, there's that's great. I love that that exists.
I co-owner a practice where this happens. I love it. I love it. I love it. I think for me, I wanted something, um, that was a little outside of the box and so yeah, I've like since done like reiki training and stuff like that and so I've kind of arrived at this place where somatic coaching just feels more aligned to how I want to practice now.
John Clarke: Nice. Yeah, that's a really good summary. Um, [00:06:00] I am, the parts of me are a little bit envious because, um, the both end is like mm-hmm. You know, being a therapist can, can communicate a lot of trust to people, or at least a baseline of like, I do re report to this board of California that is like greater than me and my career kind of depends on it, right?
Sure. And like the board is really there to protect. Consumers for sure. It's really there to protect them, not me. Um, but that, that can be a good thing, you know? Yeah. In terms of that trust piece, um, I was also talking to a. A business coaching client of mine recently, you know, who is like a trauma recovery coach.
And even though she's got lots of like traffic and people checking out her website, there's less conversions because in, in my experience, that trust thing, right? Yep. It's like anyone can call themselves a coach tomorrow if they want, right? Or today. And, uh. There is that piece around like, do you really know what you're doing?
Mm-hmm. Um, if you don't have some of that ac [00:07:00] academic background, like, like you do, right? Yeah. Um, but also like coming up against those limitations. Um, I'm somewhere in the somatic experiencing training at this point in the intermediate. Oh yeah. It's a journey, but it's great. And you know, a lot of people in there are, uh, body workers and reiki practitioners.
Um, I'm, yeah, I'm Reiki level two train, which is a piece that like, there's always that head scratcher of like. How to integrate this in a way that the board wouldn't shake their finger at. Right. That's right. Um, or so, yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm curious to hear more about that journey for you and Yeah.
Danica Harris: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
You know, I, I think for me, um, I, I, I agree with you. I think the board and the like. You know, the, the standards put in place even by like, you know, a PA and yeah, the, you know, of course our, like, governing bodies, they, uh, I believe they're necessary. I mean, we have to, the public has to have, um, some assurance that if something goes wrong, there's somebody that's gonna take action.
So I, I'm [00:08:00] glad that that exists and, and I'm not someone who was like. Anti the board being in place or felt, I mean, I, I can be a little bit of a disruptor, but like I'm, I'm also a rule follower to an extent. So like, you know, I think, I think ethics are important. Yeah. Um, and I think for me, what it, what it kind of came down to like the last year before I finally made this decision for myself, I, I had just been like, I had been feeling this, like, am I, I'm having a hard time writing therapy notes.
You know, like I was having a hard time putting my notes in, um, like within like the medical model. Yeah. And I don't think that's 'cause I was doing anything unethical. I think it's like I was not doing diagnostic work. Yeah. And, and, and I think, you know, and, and I felt limited. Like I did not wanna do touch work with my therapy clients.
That felt risky to me. Um, I could, I had consulted with an attorney who's also a therapist. She was like, do not do this. At least not in Texas. And you know, so that brought me like some pause and then I was like, well what did I do this training for? Like I'm holding back [00:09:00] and if I'm holding back and I'm wanting my clients to not hold back, like I'm not modeling for them when I need to be modeling.
And again, I think this comes down to like. How each individual practices. Right. I know two of my colleagues are, uh, the co-owner of my practice, she's an SEP and a psychologist and she's staying licensed and plans to do that. And I think the way she practice is, is just a little bit different than me. And so I, that's where I feel like the both end like, like I think, I think coaches should have more training and I love when therapists become coaches.
Yeah. Because I know they have the ethical
John Clarke: That's that's right.
Danica Harris: Yeah, the, like, they, they have a sense of what's appropriate, right? Mm-hmm. To, and how to engage with clients. And, and I still uphold, like, I still keep notes. I still uphold hipaa, you know, standards and things like that. Um, I'm just not like doing a service that someone could, um, get a diagnosis for.
We're not talking about, we're not in, uh, crisis management any longer. I'm, I'm not helping them with like, current mental health symptomology. It's more like, how do we heal and get you back in your body? So I just think I'm like, I'm a [00:10:00] different piece of the puzzle now than I was before.
John Clarke: Yeah, that's really well said and, and very thoughtful.
I mean, zooming way out, like I think the point of all this is to. Become the healer that you're intended to become. Yes. And that looks like integrating the models and ideas and philosophies or even spirituality that that makes sense to you or that you think could be in best service of your clients. And like hopefully this licensure or title piece still matches up with that at some point it doesn't.
Right. And you have that divergence or that difficult decision. Um, but really it's like your current definition of healing as it evolves. Like how do you align that with. Your practice and the way you actually help people, you know?
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I was, um, you know, I, I live in San Francisco and, uh, pretty progressive place, you know, including for like the healing arts and, um, but again, we still have a board.
But, um, like, you know, this is probably 10 years ago, I used to see, uh, a therapist, um, in her house in San Francisco, and. The sessions were basically like time unlimited. Um, I don't really know how she did that. You know, sometimes I would walk out and there'd be someone who'd been waiting in the lobby for an hour.
Sometimes there wasn't, or she'd see like two people a day. So the session was just over when it was over. But, um, also very commonly. Halfway through the session, I would get [00:12:00] up and be on like the massage table and she would have her hands un underneath me usually, and did a lot of polyvagal stuff and Steven Porges stuff.
So I might still be processing out loud or not, but it was extremely powerful, you know, and gentle and wonderful. Um, and at the time it's like she was, uh, a, you know, a, an older woman who's like three times my age and, you know, like, uh. I just always wondered about that, of like, gosh, you know, this is both like a brave thing that she can do and, um, yeah, and I would, would wonder like what the board would say about it.
Danica Harris: Yep.
John Clarke: Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Danica Harris: Yeah, I think that's, that's the thing. I think, you know, I feel so encouraged because I feel like providers of all sorts are understanding the body and understanding healing and in like much more integrated ways than was even 10 years ago. Um, certainly more than 20 or 30 years ago. Right.
And or at least more people are. I [00:13:00] think it was like, you know, the experience you're talking about that was probably like. So rare. Yeah. You know, and now I feel like more and more like therapists, healers, body workers, like people are wanting to kind of do this like cross domain work. Yeah. And I, I, I can feel people's like fear, especially therapists.
And I, and I get it. 'cause like we spend a lot of time and money to go to graduate. School and, um, this credential means something, you know, and we're expected to do continuing ed and all these pieces, so I understand like when therapists are fearful about people being in this kind of like gray area or ambiguous space related to coaching.
And I just think, gosh, I mean. We need to have some flexibility in how we help people heal. And for some people that might look like working a little bit differently. So long as consent is present, boundaries are present, you know, all the safety components, the container, all of, if that's all tended to appropriately, then why not allow you and I to both exist in this field but work differently?
John Clarke: Yeah. Why, why [00:14:00] not is a great question. And um. Like a philosophical and practical question. So I'm, I'm, I'm right there with you. Um, I had, uh, before I started the SE program, I got to see Peter Levine working here in the Bay Area with, you know, like some demos and it was really fascinating. And, uh, first of all.
Similar to my therapist I mentioned, you know, the sessions would last as long as they were intended to last. So if for some people if that was like 15 minutes, that was it For some people, if it was longer, like at some point the work was just kind of naturally complete.
Yep. And
I found that really interesting.
And then of course there was moments where, uh, doing hands-on work just kind of happened naturally and seemed like exactly the thing to, to do in those moments. Mm-hmm. But, um, it's just like really profound way of honoring. The body, the nervous system. Um, and the more I learn about somatic experiencing, the more I'm like, realize, I don't know.
'cause it's such a, [00:15:00] yeah, it's a really beautiful model, but it's really, even though I want to like distill it down to like a one page PDF, like you can for EMDR or even IFS, like mm-hmm. In theory it's it that doesn't really exist for se, which is both annoying and kind of like. Unique, you know?
Danica Harris: Yes. Yeah.
You're saying that really well. I think, um, you're describing a process I find myself in a lot when like, um, either therapist I'm working with or even a client will be like, just tell, or even on Instagram, I post a lot there and, um, you know, people will be like, but how do I do this? And I'm like, well, I don't know how you do this.
I, I know that there are many options for how any someone could do this, right? And I, I do find like the lack of the manualized treatment to be like. Frustrating for people because it's like, just tell me how to do it. Right. And like, and I feel that alongside them, you know, I can, I can be with someone in that frustration.
And simultaneously I feel like elated by that. Like, I'm like, oh, you mean anything could work? Like how freaking [00:16:00] cool is that? Yeah. Uh, but I understand that, that especially when you're like in the pro the beginning stages of like trying to heal that like, oh, anything could work is not actually helpful.
John Clarke: Totally. Well, you, you know, and strange, interesting things happen in session, uh, when you start working with the body in this way, in this kind of direct way, like learning the language of the nervous system. So if something happens, like the client is shaking or needs to move, or needs to be still or needs to lay on the ground, like you, you might go with that.
Keeping in mind some like core principles around like. Titration pendulation, like containment, uh, you know, window of tolerance, things like that. So like experiencing some something in this session that is weird or unexpected or not in the manual can be good and healthy in a way of like things kind of moving.
Yeah. If it's contained and not like blowing people's systems out, which Right. I also see like a lot of my [00:17:00] clients. I'm curious to hear more about your intensives. Clients that go to intensivess of some kind and the work is like so intense that they come back to me completely disintegrated. Whether it's like doing psychedelic work or doing a breath work workshop or whatever it is.
Like things can be really intense, um, for like the sake of intensity or efficiency. Yep. Um, and people can get really blown out. So. Yeah. So I'm, I'm curious, yeah, your thoughts on that, and then again, like a bit about your intensivess and how you approach all that.
Danica Harris: Yeah. You, again, you're speaking to something that I, I feel like I am in conversation with people a lot.
Like I, I don't tend to love, um, like the. Breath work seminars that people go, used the all day stuff or Yeah. Um, yeah, these intensives where people really are be, are getting more agitated, more activated. Um, to me that's not, and, and you're right, like, it's like for efficiency sake, they will like say like, oh, well we're gonna do all this, you know, because like, it's a huge piece of the work.
[00:18:00] Well. You know, our complex trauma clients, like they live in activation, they, they're outside of their window of tolerance every moment of every day. So I don't actually need to do anything in session to agitate a client. I don't need to like increase their activation. So to me, an intensive is actually how long can we stay?
Out, like in our window of tolerance, how long can we stay out of activation? Um, so I kind of view an intensive as like the opposite of, I think like even what the word intensive means. Yeah.
John Clarke: Kind of a misnomer for
Danica Harris: Yeah. 'cause to me it's like, you know, I think about like our retreats, like. The, the whole goal is like, come and let your nervous system settle.
Yeah. Decompress from the world around you. Yeah. Learn and feel containment, feel into some healthy co-regulation. And for some folks for the first time ever in their life, and so I'll often say like, the best somatic work almost looks like nothing from the outside. Totally. It feels like everything internally, you know?
John Clarke: Well. You know, I also, I had a client who, uh, with a complex trauma history who, um, went [00:19:00] to like a weekend workshop thing and it was like kind of a new age thing. And, um, you know, even like. Sitting in a circle and the instructor saying, you know, close your eyes. And my client, because we worked together long enough, was able to go, um, hey, that's, that's not for me.
I'm gonna sit this one out. Right? Like, closing my eyes in the middle of a, you know, circle with people is actually too much. Yeah. So, um. Consent is everything. And that's both like consent in terms of like what are you signing up for here with my intensive and also moment to moment consent and invitational language around like it may or may not feel right to close your eyes, or you may close them or open them or opt out of this circle altogether, whatever it is.
Right? And I think that because trauma is so much about the loss of agency. Healing has to be the opposite, right?
Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes
treatment is not, sometimes treatment [00:20:00] is, oh my gosh, I need to be a good client. Or I paid for this thing, or my therapist really wants me to, um, do this float back technique.
Even though there's a part of, no, don't, don't do it. Don't do it. I'm gonna do it. Just be a good client.
Yep. Yeah. And the
therapist is, is pushing it. They're pushing the envelope, pushing their agenda. Mm-hmm. You know, um, and it, it can be very dangerous.
Danica Harris: Very, yeah. You're so right. Yeah. I, I, I, my, um, kind of like initial advanced training in trauma work was with, uh, attachment focused EMDR.
Mm. Um, and I, you know, I think there's room and space for EMDR. I think it's a great technique. Um, I do not think it is for everybody. And, and, you know, nothing is really for everybody. Um, I think for me, when I, when I think about the differences between how I practiced EMDR. And how I practice symmatic experiencing.
It's like I feel the freedom to let anything happen as an SEP. Just like, like whatever. You kinda, like you said, like, let's go with it, right? Like, oh, your body needs this. Let's go with [00:21:00] that. And I, I love letting the body, the client's body tell us what we're doing instead of me and like a manualized treatment telling us what we're doing.
Like I can be curious, but even, even when I'm offering something up to a client, it is rarely. Uh, uh, with it is rarely with certainty. It's rarely with direction. It's more like, what about, or let's be curious about this, or like, what would it be like to, you know, it's very invitational, very curious and, and I will say I find the clients that I work with respond really well to that, um, and have, have seemingly like no issue saying like, no, that's not what I want.
I want this, which I'm like, yes. Then we're doing exactly what we're meant to do because you now have awareness that there's something you need and want, and let's absolutely prioritize that.
John Clarke: Yep. It's, it's huge. It's, it's really everything. And, um, you know, when I, I got trained in MDR r in like 20 14, 20 15, it feels like a long time ago.
Uhhuh, it was. Um, and it's, it's changed a lot, you know, and it's like there's a [00:22:00] hundred different protocols and Right. Clients are really wanting it. And I mean, there's just, and a lot of people using EMDR as like a comprehensive model, right? There's just everything out there. And so, um. I and I, so I run a training practice here in San Francisco.
So I've got residents, you know, who are with me for a few years and, uh, we all do trauma work. They get trained in the MDR, we get training in IFS, se, et cetera. But, um, something I have to really, I. Hone in on is discernment, right? So like just because you're doing MDR R doesn't mean you're not a therapist.
And don't forget to look up and see the person in the nervous system in the room and think how, how are they doing? Right? What do they need in this moment? Even though the protocol says Now ask about the belief, you know, that goes along with this image. The more I do EMDR, you know it. It happens more fluidly, right?
So, or the cognition just floats up naturally. Yep. Or there's just a natural moment, but, um, there's just a [00:23:00] balance between like adherence, right? Like learning how to do good work with EMDR and doing it fluidly, right? And really adaptively with the client. When, when I got trained EMDR, um, I was trying to be a good client, so I gave the therapist, uh, you know, something real, um.
I was an EMT for many years, so I gave her a call that was like one that had stuck with me probably too much. But, um, you know, for this, this occasion, but about halfway through the, the reprocessing, um, she just kind of like lost her place in the manual and didn't know what to do and got really overwhelmed and kind of like left me there.
Um, and I. I can feel some of the activation right now. Like I, it sent me into a really, really bad place. She had to go get the instructor. It took him a while to kinda like get me back. Um, at some point I had to just get up and like leave and leave the building and like run because it, I was just so outta my body.
But, um. So it both sucked and [00:24:00] was a good teacher of like the potency of it. And you can get people in deep waters pretty quickly and you have to push through some of that if you're there, you know, and help them along or stay connected at least.
Danica Harris: Right.
John Clarke: Right. Um, right. So that, that, that taught me a lot. Um, yeah.
Danica Harris: Yeah. I similarly had an experience, um, as a, as a client, uh, with EMDR that taught me kind of how I wanted to show up and exactly what you're saying. Like be in connection with the client.
John Clarke: Yeah.
Danica Harris: Even more than in connection with the manual. Like, not abandon what you need to be doing. Right. Like, like, know where you need to go.
Stay with the person as much as you possibly can, because like, that's actually where the work is happening.
John Clarke: That's right.
Danica Harris: Yeah.
John Clarke: Yeah. Yeah. It, it's interesting, I, um, I was talking to a colleague of mine, he's a professor, and um, you know, we were talking about some of the trauma, uh, research and there's, you know, evidence to support [00:25:00] various models like EMDR and also, you know, he had.
Reminded me that, um, there's also evidence to support this. The idea that people don't like retelling the trauma narrative is not an essential part of healing. Yep. So that was like a pretty amazing reminder and uh, yeah, I'm curious like your thoughts on that or just how you conceptualize that piece of trauma work.
Danica Harris: I have very strong thoughts about that.
John Clarke: Okay. Go for it. This is the show for that. Oh, good. Strong, strong thoughts.
Danica Harris: I would say that's like my, like number one foundation for trauma work is we do not need to retell the story 'cause the story stays alive inside of us. And in fact, most of us are not far away from our trauma even when we're in this moment.
You know, like you said, it's like you can get into deep waters with the MDR quickly. It's, I think that's true with any of these. You know, body ba, anytime we're working with the body, the system, like I think we can expect someone to be able to access the intensity of their [00:26:00] trauma story, trauma history mm-hmm.
Pretty quickly. And so to me, the, these modalities where like, I think about CPT, I'm just. So anti that approach. Like, um, and I, and I, you know, and I'm not gonna say that, like there aren't people who practice it in safer ways. Like sure, sure, sure there's nuance everywhere. But as a, as a, an approach, it, it just really does not sit well with me that we would have someone retell a story to the point where there is less activation without acknowledging that, like, probably that's dissociation.
And I just think about the number of clients. I, over the years I kind of became this therapist that, um, was I was every client's seventh or eighth therapist, you know, they had seen a ton of people before me. Same. And they were coming to me, same here. Mm-hmm. And I, and I think that's because I, I have been doing body-based work and I think it was like, well, I tried all this other stuff and that didn't work, so let me try this.
And, and you know what, and I'm not, not saying I'm necessarily a better. Provider than others. But what I will say is like working with people's systems, [00:27:00] they were able to feel into change in ways they were not experiencing before. And so I wanna sit with what's existing right here, right now between us.
Because if we can attend to the activation as it exists in your body or or the collapse or whatever, the dissociation, whatever we're talking about, if we can be with what is right here, right now. Then you can actually be present and the trauma can stay in the past where it needs to be so that there's some distance between you and the trauma.
And if my goal is to help the person be less, less coupled with their trauma, more integrated in themselves, why would we ever go towards the trauma story?
John Clarke: Yeah. Because, well, yeah, because that's the common belief, right? And even therapists that, um, just say like, oh, I, uh. And I think I was one of these therapists too in like 20, you know, the first few years of my career until I got EMDR R trained because I realized, like I was quote, like comfortable having clients talk about what had happened to them, but I [00:28:00] didn't really know what to do with it.
Danica Harris: Right, right.
John Clarke: Other than just go, wow, this is horrific. Right. See you next week. And then they're in their trauma. Right. Good luck. Right, right. Regulating or going back to work or not drinking yourself to death right after the session or whatever you need to do. Right, exactly. And so, and again, their idea that like, I should probably talk about this, it's like May, maybe.
Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. Um, so yeah, I, I, I, I totally agree and um. I lost my thought, but you should keep going.
Danica Harris: It's okay. Well, I, you know, it's making me think about, um, something I'll often say to clients when, when new, if I see a new person, um, even doing somatic coaching work, obviously there's some talk component to it, right?
I need to get to understand the person. Uh, and it, you're right, people come in with this idea that like, well, let me tell you every single horrible thing that's ever happened to me.
John Clarke: Yeah. 'cause I think you need to know that in order to help me.
Danica Harris: Right.
John Clarke: And and there's Don't say that on the consult call.
Danica Harris: You're exactly right. Yeah. They're like ready to tell you. And, and I understand that like part of [00:29:00] that is also about like validation, right? Like if I don't tell you everything, then will you even believe it's as bad as it was or will I, will I believe me? Yeah. And what I'll always say to people on the consult call and in first few sessions is I wanna hear anything you want to say.
However, I do not need to hear the details of your trauma to help you heal. Yeah, that's, and I find that people, as soon as I say that, people's system settle. I watch it. They just, they sit back in their chair, they pull back their shoulders, come down a little bit because I think it's a relief for them to know, okay, I'm believed here and I don't have to like, you know, bring up all these wounds in order to be believed.
John Clarke: Yeah. Well there, there's a lot of fears too, and kind of like. Quote, blocking beliefs around the work of like. If I tell my therapist, do they think it's really that bad? Am I being ridiculous? Does this even warrant therapy or e mdr r Um, and again, thi this just to me is like indicative of our core wounding when clients are [00:30:00] talking about this stuff, the deserving, you know, parts of us.
Um, you know, I'll have clients who, again, not that we like rank them, but clients who have, um, some of the most intense trauma history I've ever heard going. I like this just feels indulgent. John. Like you probably have someone waiting in the lobby right now who's way worse than me.
Yep.
Right. Yeah. Because it's like, well, what, what if I did right?
Do I even deserve to to be here? Mm-hmm. Right.
Danica Harris: Yeah. And like what a, what an adaptive way to survive by minimizing your own pain. Yeah.
John Clarke: Yeah.
Danica Harris: Because you have to get up tomorrow and go through the day. And one of the ways we do that is to. Minimize disconnect, you know, believe, oh, it, it couldn't be that bad 'cause I'm still functioning well.
Yeah.
John Clarke: I still go to work and I have functioning.
Danica Harris: You had to function.
John Clarke: Yeah.
Danica Harris: You know, like, so yes. You were able to function and, and like, yeah, we don't need to be rank ordering traumas because like, what's bad enough to your system is bad enough to need care and attention.
John Clarke: Well, what I tell them is like, um, and this is also an [00:31:00] IFS thing is like.
You were there. You are in, in many ways, the only one who knows what happened and how bad it was. So can you be with those parts right now and go, yeah, I was there. I know how bad it was. I that, and if there are parts that need to tell me to go, John, this is how bad it was, I'm, I can go there with you and hold that with you.
Mm. Right. But it's really connecting parts back to self versus like connecting parts to John.
Danica Harris: Right.
John Clarke: Granted, sometimes that is a bridge to the work is like there's a part that wants to tell me how bad it was and then for John to go. Yeah, this was bad. Mm-hmm. This was really bad. This was scary. Mm-hmm.
Right. Um, even if it was a close call or an almost abuse or an almost whatever, it's like this was, this was terrifying. And it's, it's alive right now.
Danica Harris: Yeah. Well, and, and I think what you're saying too is like that to me, like, you know, a client wanting to tell you and, and be like, received relationally so that they can be validated [00:32:00] feels so different than session one.
Tell me your whole trauma history. Yeah. Right. Because like then they're saying like, I trust you, John. To be with me in this and like, yeah, that's super important. And us validating their story, um, and like how bad something was, how scary something was. I, I think that's so, so powerful. But we have to in a contained and measured way, right?
Because even providing someone with like too much care, too fast can flood their system or, you know, so it's all about these small pieces I think we can work with. And that, that's why I'll tell people like, yeah, I don't, don't Tell me about the trauma on session one. Tell me what works, what's good. Like, what's something you do for fun or joy?
Like, I wanna know like, the times you feel most like yourself, the most resourced, um, the most normal or neutral air quotes, whatever that means to you. Like that. That's what I wanna know. I don't wanna know about the worst of it, and I know that Anything I need to know, you'll tell me and I'll hear it.
John Clarke: Yep.
I love that you're, I tell the clinic, you know, clinicians, um. [00:33:00] If the client sticks around long enough to do the deeper work, you're gonna find out pretty much everything you need to know. That's so true. So I, I also have strong feelings about like the intake process at large or the assessment kind of.
Process that a lot of therapists do, 'cause it can be really triggering and really, uh, invasive, right? And it's like I, even though, again, I'm this guy who reports to the board and I should be trustworthy, um, I don't wanna assume that I've already like, earned your trust and holding this story. So I don't want you to feel like you have to tell me these things.
Until you're ready to. Yep. Um, so that, that's, that's kind of how I approach it. 'cause I think it can feel so intrusive. Mm-hmm. Invasive to, um. To have people, you know, require people to like tell their story right off the bat. So it's something for, you know, and this is like a rhetorical question for therapists, or maybe not rhetorical, but um, like how much information do you need to know in order to help [00:34:00] someone?
Right? And therapists that because of their anxious parts need to know every single detail. For their own stuff. Right? And it's like, well, okay, what are you gonna do with that? Or is there, are there parts of you that are like, well, I just need to know how bad it was so that I know like, what to prepare for.
It's like, what, what is that? That's for you Exactly. Not for the client.
Danica Harris: Exactly. Yep. Yep.
John Clarke: Yeah. So yeah, it's, it's a dance, right? You know, I, I made the joke recently. I seem to have developed a specialty in doing therapy with clients who've had really bad therapy. You know, same, same. I don't, I don't know why I didn't expect that to be like a specialty on my list of specialties, but Sure.
Danica Harris: But you know, those of us that have, you know, considerable training and working with complex trauma and probably have done our own healing work, I think yeah. We kind of unintentionally become that because unfortunately so many of these therapy models that people are learning in graduate school, they're, they're not actually client [00:35:00] centered.
John Clarke: You know,
Danica Harris: they're, they, they are a little more focused on like, what does the therapist need here to function and show up? And, you know, I want therapists to think about what they need in terms of their own system. Right. But like you're saying, it's like if, if as a therapist I'm noticing some anxiety is coming up because I feel like I need to know my client, it is not my client's job to soothe that anxiety by telling me their history.
It's, it's my work to go make sure that I'm resourced and can handle the ambiguity that comes up session after session.
John Clarke: Well, I, I'm sure, I bet you can comment on this as, you know, a, a, a business owner is, um, a lot of my clinicians, because we're a cash pay practice here in San Francisco. They feel the pressure of, oh my gosh, this person's paying a hundred and whatever dollars.
Mm-hmm. So I gotta deliver. Yep. I gotta like give them something. Right. Which becomes a form of an agenda. Right? Yep. Which in IFS terms, like that's how we know we're kind of blended with apart. That's trying to like, make something happen here. [00:36:00] Right. Um, and it, it, it just creates that tension, right? And the feeling on other side, on the other side for the client is, my therapist is trying to make something happen here, or trying to get me to do something, or trying to get me to x and that feels bad, right?
Like the way I think about it is like, have you ever gone into a conversation and at some point you realize this friend is like trying to change my mind.
Danica Harris: Yeah.
John Clarke: Like how does that feel, right?
Hmm. This is what like def being defensive is like who or what am I defending? Right, exactly. It's like exactly. Oh, this person thinks I'm wrong about whatever politics, you know, the best, uh, gas station in Texas.
I don't know. Whatever it is, it's like you feel that energy, right? That, that brings up parts of your own. And so just be mindful of those external forces and pressures. Yep. Right. Even when clients bring them and have higher expectations. Yep. So you honor that. And honor, there's a part of me that wants to like
Danica Harris: mm-hmm.
John Clarke: Deliver or be worth my fee. Yep. And I try to check that at the door and just be with [00:37:00] the client here. Mm-hmm. And maybe look for one or two moments where I lean in and do a little more. Active intervention and then I lean back again. That's to me like the art of what we do and really the dance. Like is a client actually dancing with you or are you like forcing the dance on them?
'cause you wanna That's right. Make sure they think you're a good therapist and you're worth the, the two 20.
Danica Harris: Yeah. Oh yes. This is something I feel I've talked about with, uh, lots of folks I have supervised and mentored over the years, and then certainly with, uh, the therapists that I think, especially therapist entrepreneurs.
Yes. Or you know, those in a cash pay practice because, um, and it's understandable. It's understandable that that would come up for us or it would under be understandable that clients are like, what's the, what's the deliverable I'm getting for this dollar amount? And, and you know what I'll, what I, what I do, what I think about for myself is like, whatever we're meant to do, we will do today.
And some days are gonna feel better than others in our work because some days in fact feel better than others. Like that's just the truth and the [00:38:00] availability of. My client and the availability of me and my system that's gonna influence the work we can do. But so is the world around us, right? So there's so many factors and I just, you know, really try to encourage clients to, and, and for again, self-talk to myself whenever I feel this come up.
It's like the work we do needs to break the pattern of urgency that runs in our client's system. You know, that's urgency is like part of like that trauma response, right? Yeah, well the whole culture for sure. And then also trauma. And the trauma response like, oh, something horrible is happening and I need to act fast.
Right. So like that fight response. The flight response, there's urgency in that activation. Yeah. And so like what if the work we do is so non-urgent? I know that there's, there's privilege in that. Like not everybody can access therapy that way or somatic healing in that way. So I understand and, and I think we have to hold, you know, all of this in, well, the same conversation.
Uh, but the truth of it is, if I can have one session with someone and they can be with their body just a little bit more, then that's exactly what we were meant to do. Even if when [00:39:00] they hang up the call or walk outta my office, they're like, what? But what is the tangible thing we did today? It's kind of going back to like what we were saying about.
Somatic experiencing, like it's not manualized. There's not one thing. So like the the goal every session is can you be a little bit more with yourself? And that's gonna look different day to day,
John Clarke: a thousand percent, I think. You and I probably work very similarly in this way, in this like, yeah, sounds like it.
I call it like positionality, you know, with my clinicians it's like, what, what is our position relative to the client and ter and in terms of our role, what do we think our role here is? Right? The paradox is if I can access like part of my center, this sensa, this sense of like, nothing has to happen here today.
Paradoxically things start happening. Right? For sure. So like, again, like this IFS piece, it's like if I really communicate and embody that, like this really young exile doesn't have to like come out and peek its head out for me. I give that [00:40:00] energy, but guess what? The part is more likely to come here and go, well, it seems safe, and no one's trying to push anything on me today.
Right. Again, same thing. I like trying to get a kid to do something, right? Yep. I have a five-year-old, you know, it's like that's a real specific kind of energy. It doesn't feel great, so. You know, it's like, yeah. Trauma vortex. Healing vortex. So just like our stance or this corrective emotional stance that we can take is what invites the healing.
Yes. And the client knows that door is open every week. Mm-hmm. Or whenever we go into session, that's always the invitation. And so they might go there with me today, or they might bullshit me and talk about, uh. You know, current events for an hour. Mm-hmm. Either one. It's not to say that something isn't also happening there.
Right. Or they're going, I wanna see what happens if I just kind of keep John on the outside today. Right. Or if I don't go there.
Yeah. Yep.
Right. And I might just notice that, or if it happens three sessions in a row, I might just notice like, Hey man, like past few [00:41:00] sessions, you know, we've kind of just been here.
How is that for you?
Danica Harris: Yep.
John Clarke: You know? Yeah. And that like, again, it's like I don't have a problem with it.
Danica Harris: Exactly.
John Clarke: It's not, it's not him being resistant, you know, I have a client doing that right now, but it's, it's part of the dance, right? Yeah.
Danica Harris: Yeah. Oh yeah. I definitely, you know, this is, I'm sure you get this too.
People, uh, on like a consult call will wonder how long will I need to be in therapy? Or how long will this take? And, you know, and what I'll say is like, well, we're gonna move at the pace of your nervous system and, and, you know, the client who goes into a more topical or superficial place for a session or two, I trust that there's wisdom in that.
There might be a reason that they're going there. And like you're saying, like, you know, three sessions in a row, we might just like. Notice it out loud and like maybe we, maybe we stay there for a while and that's important too because even being able to be in safe conversation about things that don't like necessarily feel emotionally heavy.
Like is is relational work, right? And so I, I think what you're saying about the positionality, it's like, if we imagine that we're like cours and we're, we're here, you know, as like a witness to their pain, we're here to co [00:42:00] healthy co-regulation with these, with these folks, then we can achieve that in a variety of ways, including talking about the weather.
John Clarke: Yep.
Mm-hmm.
It's, yeah, again, like with. With newer clinicians, uh, or just clinicians in general, we can feel like it's not enough. How is what I'm doing not enough? And that's a question I ask them, right? It's like, how, how is this not enough? You know? Mm-hmm. So that's the invitation for the practitioner to do that deeper work.
Right. And a lot of us, for a lot of it, it's our history and our wounding about that. That is why we got how we got here in the first place. Right.
Danica Harris: Well, absolutely.
John Clarke: If you're not letting me help you, you're not gonna love me anymore. Right. Or the way I was useful to my caregiver who was, you know, drunk or dysregulated or whatever, was I was their miniature therapist.
So why are you not letting me do that? Yeah, right. Yeah. Well, my client is relapsing what you, why aren't you letting me rescue you from that?
Danica Harris: Yep. Yeah. So real, our own style, especially with this work, [00:43:00] um, our own stuff is gonna be so present. Yeah. And knowing what your stuff is and, and like, having no shame about that stuff either.
Yeah. It's like, you know, I, I, I feel I, I work pretty hard to attend to myself and, you know, every now and again in a session, a client will say something or show up in a way where I just, I can feel it internally like, oh, that's real close to me, you know? And, and I have this system internally for myself where I'm like, get back in your own chair.
John Clarke: Yeah.
Danica Harris: It's like as soon as I can say that to myself, it's like, whew. I can feel that healthy differentiation between me and the client. And you have many years into doing this work, you know, over 15 years of doing this work. That process is pretty quick for me now, and it didn't use to be as quick, you know?
And so I try to encourage new folks to just like keep practicing that. Keep practicing in the moment, that healthy differentiation between you and the client and know that there's time and space for you to attend to yourself and your stuff, but it's not right here, right now. Right here, right now, we have to be with the human being that's trusting us to be available for them.
John Clarke: Absolutely. I, I had a supervisee asking me, [00:44:00] um, well, I had revealed to her that, um, I got activated in a session. She was like shocked about that. Right. Wow. Because the idea was like, well, if you've been doing it as long as I have, which is about 15 years, yeah. That shouldn't happen anymore, right?
Mm-hmm. And so it was actually, actually really revealing for her.
To be like, of, of course this happens. Of course, stuff hooks into my stuff. And, um, what gets easier over time is I can notice it, I can be with it, I can communicate to that part of me that I'm, I'm here, I can unblend from it and be with the client. Yep. Um, I can do somatic things like sit on my hands.
Right? Mm-hmm. When I feel like I want to do more or do a lot or have that energy, I might sit on my hands and even just lean back in my chair a little bit. Mm. Yep. Just like, what's it, what's it like to do that? Versus there's a part of me that really wants to lean in or fix or prove that I know a lot.
Right. Like that could come up a client who Oh, yeah. Like, well, yeah, I actually do know a lot. You know, they're putting me in that expert chair. Yep. Of [00:45:00] course, all that shit comes up. Of course. Yeah. And I never stopped being human. You know, just because I got this job or this license. So the more I own my humanity mm-hmm.
Both for my supervisees and show them that, and for my clients, um, the better the work is and the Richard is, and it, and it doesn't feel like, oh my gosh, I've gotta conceal, you know, every time exactly the client, I've gotta conceal and check my humanity at the door. That's weird, right?
Danica Harris: It is weird and people feel it.
If people feel it. For sure. Yeah. I mean I've, I've think like as time has gone on, the longer I've been doing this sort of work, it's like I'm even more comfortable just naming if I feel activated with a client, you know, and like, and, and not like to the degree where I'm taking it over. Right. But like, not ever wanting to like.
Um, misrepresent myself to a client because I just think about for so many of us, part of that wounding was, well, our parents said one thing and did another, and so we didn't trust ourselves. Yeah.
John Clarke: Self abandoning. Yeah.
Danica Harris: Yeah. And so like, I never want a client to experience that with me. What you see is what you get.
So like if, [00:46:00] if I, if, and I invite that, like if I have a, a look on my face or something like that, that you're unsure about, ask me. And you know, and I, one of the things I've gotten better, like sometimes I'll get migraines that's like a symptom that I, couple times a year they'll just come up. And so I always make sure to tell a client if I'm like not feeling my total best self still present, able to be here, but like I can see it on my face and I would never want them to think something on my face was in response to them.
Right. So it's like I'm even more comfortable, I think just. Letting my humanity show. Yeah. In those ways when I'm with clients so that like they don't have to leave guessing like, was Danica upset with me today? Was she tired? Was she, and I don't want them to wonder about me. I want them, I wanna be clear on who I am and what we're here to do.
And I think that's just being transparent about like as things arise that need to be tended to
John Clarke: tending to the relationship. And again, like. As a, you bring it back to where we started in my experience, and again, this is like growth generalities. Um, [00:47:00] sometimes like coaches, uh, have less of that experience tending to the relationship and in this minutia and, and, um, hey, it looks like that didn't quite land with you.
Yeah. Or being able to be in that process with a client, right. Or the client going, I feel like you're not getting me and the therapist going. Tell me more about that. You know? Yep. Like let's be in that, because some of that could be really mine. Or maybe I was actually distracted and they noticed. Right.
Or it could be they've got parts that are looking at me going, you seem distracted, and I'm checking in and going, I. Yeah, I don't feel distracted in this moment, but tell me more about that. 'cause that feeling is real and is valid and is taking the client somewhere. Right? And you're going, I'm not sure if you're getting me.
It's like, God, thank you for letting me know. That's so important for our work that you're letting me know. Like you didn't feel quite got in that moment. Yes. So being able to go there with clients in that minutiae and being able to hold our own stuff mm-hmm. And tend to the process is like so essential.
Mm-hmm. And it happens that my grad program was three years of just [00:48:00] that. It was psychodynamic, interpersonal process, yalom. So I, you know, like maybe to a fault, that's what I had experience doing. And some clinicians come out with like a lot of technical savvy, some. More that interpersonal, you know, process savvy, but it's kind of has to be both.
Yeah. You know, I agree. Again, you have to get that training and that experience somewhere, whether you're therapist or a coach or a, I don't know, just a dude with a website.
Danica Harris: Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree with you.
John Clarke: To, to tend to the relationship. Yeah.
Danica Harris: Yeah.
Well, and I think it's also like, you know, with coaches, I think a lot of times it's like.
Um, whether this is like client led or coach led, it's like the coach is the expert, the client is there to learn. That's right. You know, and I think in relational work, like in body-based work, like we're doing, um, we know that the client is actually their own expert and we are, you know, we might be an expert in a theory or, or a specialist in a theory or you know, whatever, but ultimately.
It's, it's our humanity alongside theirs and that they [00:49:00] know themselves the best. And, and I think it's always orienting back towards the client as their own expert. And actually they, they come in not believing they are, you know? And so what the goal for our work is, I think is like when, when we're wrapping up, when the the time has come to a close, does this person feel more embodied in like, and aware that they're their own experts so that they can navigate the world without this container?
John Clarke: Yeah. My, my wife, who's an executive coach, she went to a really good program called the Hudson Institute. You know, they, they talk about leading from behind. Versus leading from in front. And it's kind of that too, right? So I, I might share some expertise or some not head knowledge about this thing or about trauma, right?
But again, positionality wise, I'm still leading from behind or beside, right? And that looks and feels very different than this top down, like, oh yeah, you're here for me to just like school you on trauma. And then when I'm, when I'm like emptied the gas tank and I don't know any other head knowledge to give you the client's like, okay, what's next?
Danica Harris: Exactly. Exactly.
John Clarke: And and a
lot of [00:50:00] Thera therapists, coaches, whomever, they accidentally fall into that chair. Yep. And clients put them there and then they go, God, this feels intense. And I'm dreading seeing this client 'cause I always feel like I'm not doing enough. Right. Or I've, I'm spending an hour prepping for my session.
'cause I gotta have like a format or a worksheet or whatever, you know? So.
Yeah,
so true. Um, well, time has flown by Danica. I mean, we, yeah, we have, gosh, a lot of overlap. It's, it's interesting and this, this isn't always the case with, with guests since this is the first time I'm meeting people. So in this case, I think you and I have a lot of similar ways of thinking about the work, so that, that's fun for me.
Um, yeah. Maybe just to, to round us out, tell people a little bit more about Yeah. Your work and then the upcoming intensives and how they can learn more and get in touch.
Danica Harris: Sure. Uh, well, I think I have a kind of a wide range of ways that people can access me and my work. Um, so I put out. Content on Instagram, [00:51:00] you can find me at the Impaired therapist.
Um, so lots of free resources there. I also have a weekly newsletter and a blog. Those are all my free things. Lots of great somatic and attachment based stuff in those, in those two places. Um. I also own co-own a group therapy practice in Dallas, Texas, but we are able to see clients, um, up into like 43 different states now.
So, um, you know, certainly if folks are looking for a therapist and this, uh, approach that I'm talking about today resonates with you, uh, that might be a good fit. And then also the impaired therapist is the business where we do. Retreats, intensivess, um, uh, training support for therapists. Mentorship for therapists.
And so folks can find me on that website and te mm-hmm. Check out all the offerings.
John Clarke: Awesome. We'll be sure to put links to all that, um, in the, uh, in the description and show notes and, and whatnot. And, um. Thanks for being here, Danika and I, uh, would, would genuinely love to have you back [00:52:00] sometime. So please, by all means, keep in touch and let me know if you ever wanna pop in again and, and chat.
Danica Harris: Sure. This was lovely. Thank you.
John Clarke: All right. Talk to you soon.
Danica Harris: Okay.
John Clarke: Thanks for listening to another episode of Going Inside. If you enjoyed this episode, please like and subscribe wherever you're listening or watching, and share your favorite episode with a friend. You can follow me on Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok at johnclarketherapy and apply to work with me one-on-one at johnclarketherapy.com.
See you next time.
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