In this episode, I’m joined by Bobby Lennox, a former C-suite executive turned psychedelic medicine facilitator, to explore the line between the “performed self” and who we really are underneath. We talk about the high achievers whose success is fueled by deep wounds, why so many fear that healing will cost them their edge, and how protectors shape the identities we show the world. We also explore the ego of the practitioner, the “Monday dilemma” of integration, and why “ego death” might really be about building a relationship with the ego.
Key takeaways:
The edge your high-achieving clients are afraid to lose may be the very thing keeping them stuck.
Peak experiences fade fast without integration. The real work starts on Monday morning.
Whether you’re a therapist or a facilitator, your own ego in the room shapes your client’s journey more than you think.
Guest Info:
Bobby Lennox is a serial entrepreneur, former C-suite executive, and Harvard Business School MBA. He facilitates psychedelic medicine ceremonies in Los Angeles through Jaguar House Ministries, the church he founded. Trained in the Shipibo and Mayan lineages, he leads the Enlightened Executive Program for founders and leaders, and he writes The Ego Death Dispatch on Substack about the leadership frontier of ego death work.
Website: https://jaguarhouse.org
Substack: https://egodeathdispatch.substack.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/_bobbylennox/
Email: bobby@jaguarhouse.org
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Transcript:
[00:00:00] John Clarke: Bobby Lennox is a serial entrepreneur, former C-suite executive, and Harvard Business School MBA who facilitates psychedelic medicine ceremonies in Los Angeles through Jaguar House Ministries, the church he founded. Trained in the Shipibo and Mayan lineages, he writes The Ego Death Dispatch on Substack about the leadership frontier of ego death work.
[00:00:21] John Clarke: You can find him at jaguarhouse.org or egodeathdispatch.substack.com. Bobby, thank you so much for being here. Um, what else should people know about who you are and how you got here?
[00:00:34] Bobby Lennox: John, it's a privilege. Thank you for having me. Um- Sure ... yeah, I mean, most of my life has been sent, uh, spent in sort of seeking, um, the, the answers of, of who I am and my identity and, and how I disentangle that from, um, you know, the, the idea of who I think other people wanted me to be or, or who I should have been.
[00:00:55] Bobby Lennox: Um, and so whether that's been in the business world or in the medicine world, [00:01:00] um, a lot of my focus has been on just, um, you know, understanding and developing a, a deeper sense of self and then guiding others, um, to do that same work. So- Mm ... it's a privilege to be here with you kind of discussing all of the, the things related to that today.
[00:01:15] John Clarke: Yeah. Uh, you know, I have to say, just, just reading your background and knowing the kind of work you do now, um, most of my career as a psychotherapist has been here in Silicon Valley, so, um-
[00:01:27] Bobby Lennox: Yeah ...
[00:01:27] John Clarke: you know, the heart of technology and, you know, you come here to be someone, and you hope your startup is like a unicorn, and, um- Yeah
[00:01:35] John Clarke: I work with a lot of folks who their identity is so, uh, scarily tied to-
[00:01:44] Bobby Lennox: Mm ...
[00:01:44] John Clarke: this, to, to business, to success, to money, to, like, being special. Um- Yeah ... I just kind of see that, first of all, there's a lot of good that comes from that because I find that, like, a lot of the most, quote, "successful people" also often have, like, a [00:02:00] lot of the, the greatest wounding around-
[00:02:02] Bobby Lennox: Yeah
[00:02:02] John Clarke: feeling like they're not enough or fearing they're not enough, and also, um, at some point, that can start to create, you know, symptoms in their life or anxiety, depression, burnout, whatever. Or they do- Yeah ... achieve the big thing they were hoping to achieve here, and they go, "Now what? Who am I?" Yeah. "Oh, my gosh, I still have to deal with the human condition."
[00:02:23] John Clarke: Uh, so I'm curious how you, like, think about all that given, yeah, your background and what you do now.
[00:02:30] Bobby Lennox: Yeah. I see so much of that with a lot of the clients that I work with. So, um, I'm based in Los Angeles. Jaguar House is a California-based church, so I do- Mm ... have a lot of clients that I work with up in the Bay Area, um, a lot of them who are high-power execs and founders- Yep
[00:02:46] Bobby Lennox: and, um, CEOs. And, um, it's, it's really accurate what you said in that so many people who are wildly successful are doing it because of some deep wound that exists-
[00:02:58] John Clarke: Yeah ...
[00:02:58] Bobby Lennox: um, in them that is [00:03:00] spurring them on to achieve, to accomplish, to, um, have external validation that they are okay or good or in alignment with what they're- Yeah
[00:03:09] Bobby Lennox: supposed to be doing. Um, and what I've found in doing psychedelic medicine work with so many of these, um, leaders is that when they start to realize that stripping away the success or the achievement or the, um, the kind of, um, performed identity-
[00:03:28] John Clarke: Yeah ...
[00:03:29] Bobby Lennox: and getting to the core of their I am, who they actually are, that's actually a terrifying prospect- Oh, yeah
[00:03:35] Bobby Lennox: um, because the chasm that they've created between doing and succeeding and accomplishing is so far away from the core of who they are as a person that trying to peer across that chasm makes them just completely lock up. Um- Yeah ... and the work that I do in psychedelic medicine is really to help them get back in touch with that version of themselves deep down- Yeah
[00:03:59] Bobby Lennox: where, [00:04:00] you know, it's not the protectors who are on the front lines fighting all the time, who usually are the ones are driving the success along. Yeah. Um, and it's really just that vulnerable oftentimes kid deep inside who just needs some love and attention.
[00:04:15] John Clarke: Yeah. Uh, another thing that comes up is a lot of my clients, they kind of fear that, um, if they do all this healing work that they will, quote, "lose their edge."
[00:04:26] John Clarke: Yeah. Right? And, um, I had a client who we've been working together for years, and we've done a lot of deep work, a lot of trauma work, and, um- I- in reality, you know, he had that fear too, because a lot of his edge came from this, like, chip on my shoulder, gotta prove something, which is, again- Yeah ... very powerful and very motivating.
[00:04:44] John Clarke: Yeah. That's what kind of got him to the dance, but wasn't gonna be the thing to get him to, uh, fulfillment. Right. And so after doing a lot of this healing work, um, he's almost more effective in that [00:05:00] he completely ditched one- his business and built one that actually matters to him- Yeah ... is connected with purpose in a whole new way.
[00:05:08] John Clarke: Um, it l- leads a lot more from the h- from the heart, which I love, and, uh-
[00:05:13] Bobby Lennox: Yeah ...
[00:05:14] John Clarke: and, I- I mean, naturally gets better results, and now has, like, the business of his dreams that also on paper is doing well, and he loves and is connected with, so.
[00:05:22] Bobby Lennox: Yeah.
[00:05:24] John Clarke: Yeah.
[00:05:25] Bobby Lennox: I mean, that's a perfect case study, right, for- Yeah, right
[00:05:28] Bobby Lennox: for all of this work. Um, and I, I use the term work in sort of a very broad context, right- Yeah ... whether it's psychotherapy and coaching, whether it's psychedelic medicine, whether it's some other modality, um, it really is work, and it's, it's something- Yeah ... that people need to go into with intention and, and with the, the willingness to actually put some energy into it.
[00:05:50] Bobby Lennox: Um, but the word that you use, which is purpose, I think is that's the thing that lies on the other side of the, the striving, quote, "Am I gonna lose my [00:06:00] edge?" version. Um, and I experienced that myself. Um, you know, I was a CEO. I ran a number of portfolio companies, um- Mm ... for a private equity group, and, you know, running three companies simultaneously, you have to keep your edge.
[00:06:14] Bobby Lennox: You can't let up, and you can't be soft or, or weak or feel like- Yeah ... you deserve a break, um, which is all the unhealthy ways of operating, really shouting very loudly. Um, and when I had kind of hit a, a breaking point for myself in doing psychedelic work that really opened my eyes, what came through for me was I can't possibly lose my edge if I'm aligned with my purpose.
[00:06:41] John Clarke: Yeah.
[00:06:41] Bobby Lennox: And I think the edge that so many people have developed that has led them to success has been as a, a result of either resentment or revenge or trying to prove something. Yeah. Excuse me. And I think those are all, as we've said, really powerful, but they're not aligned [00:07:00] necessarily, and they're not the best types of fuel to put in your tank.
[00:07:03] Bobby Lennox: Yeah. Um, and so having that clearly identified purpose, which often comes through as a result of just clarity and self-understanding, um, that's the ultimate fuel that you can put in your tank to really be successful.
[00:07:16] John Clarke: Yeah. Absolutely. So, um, I, yeah, I'm curious what your, your work looks like now and, um- And, and maybe backing up a little bit how you got started in working with, um, uh, psychedelics and, and doing this, uh, this type of work
[00:07:35] Bobby Lennox: Yeah.
[00:07:36] Bobby Lennox: So I'll start with the, the second part. Um, so, you know, I was an entrepreneur, was a, a marketing exec for a number of years before striking out on my own and building my own businesses. And my first business that I built, um, was a, a passion project that turned out to be quite successful, but at a certain point, the business was running me rather than me running it.
[00:07:57] Bobby Lennox: And I got to a point where I felt like I was [00:08:00] trapped in a cage of my own making, and I really didn't know how to get out of it, how to get out of it without looking like a failure, um, how to not let down all of the people who had helped me build this thing along the way. And a friend of mine, um, who was out here in California, I was living in New York at the time, um, she said, "Hey, you're planning on visiting us.
[00:08:21] Bobby Lennox: Why don't you move up your flight by a week 'cause we're gonna be doing a psychedelic medicine ceremony, and I think it could help you." And so I did, and I worked with this amazing practitioner out here who's now a dear friend of mine and a mentor, and she served me my first psychedelic medicine, um, ever that I had worked with.
[00:08:39] Bobby Lennox: And it helped me break apart and kind of loosen the bonds that were there holding my vision in a fixed place. Um, and it gave me the ability to kind of see outside of myself a little bit more to understand, okay, whatever this is that I'm afraid of right now or entangled in or feel completely locked into, it's really [00:09:00] just a construct.
[00:09:01] Bobby Lennox: It's really just a result of my own choices and the things that I've put emphasis on and, and investment into. And at any given moment, right now or in my life in general, I can decide that I want something else, and it doesn't have to be a failure. It doesn't have to be- Yeah ... um, you know, something where it's a letdown or I need to walk with my head hang, hung low.
[00:09:23] John Clarke: Yeah.
[00:09:23] Bobby Lennox: Um, and so that then, and this was about 10 years ago, that then turned into me doing a series of these psychedelic journeys, um, that led me to a deeper understanding of myself. And I got to a place where I saw how much it changed my work, my relationship to myself, um, my relationships with the people around me, that I decided that I wanted to be able to serve this medicine to other people so they could have similar experiences.
[00:09:50] Bobby Lennox: Um, and so I then built, um, Jaguar House as a way of combining my business experience with my, my love of and appreciation [00:10:00] for psychedelic medicine. And so right now, typically what I focus on is what I call my Enlightened Executive Program, um, where I work with people, you know, like the, the folks you work with in the Bay Area, um, execs who have that one thing that they always come with, which is, "I don't know what the next phase of my life looks like.
[00:10:20] Bobby Lennox: I feel like I'm stuck. I feel like I can't move forward, but I don't wanna lose my edge." Yeah. "How can I work with you to ensure that I can still be the version of myself that I'm really proud of, but the version of myself that's really connected and heart-led?" Um, and so we will do, um, a three-week period where we'll work with medicine.
[00:10:41] Bobby Lennox: Um, I usually work with toad medicine, with bufo, um, with these, uh, folks, and it's 5-MeO-DMT is the molecule. And so every Monday morning first thing, we'll work with bufo medicine, and then throughout the week I support them through coaching and through integration conversations- Mm ... um, and journal [00:11:00] prompts.
[00:11:00] Bobby Lennox: And then by the end of it, without fail, every single one of these people that I've worked with looks me dead in the eye and they say, "I feel like I get to start my life again- Mm ... in a way that I get to choose." Um, and in addition to doing that, I do plant medicine ceremonies where it's kind of a full day experience, more immersive for people.
[00:11:20] Bobby Lennox: Um, but what I found with, you know, the leaders that we've been discussing so far, that really is, um, one, it's structured in a way that they understand a little bit more. And they say, you know, "This is a program. It's not just a one-time thing. Um, we can partner together on doing this work." Yeah. Um, but the transformation that they see in those three weeks really, like for, for people who where time is money, um, for them, that's such a critical factor of being able to at least have a little bit of a relief and a-
[00:11:49] John Clarke: Yeah
[00:11:49] Bobby Lennox: um, an optimism about where they're headed next.
[00:11:52] John Clarke: Mm-hmm. W- what is the experience like, um, with the, the, the first medicine you mentioned? [00:12:00] Uh, I don't know much about- Yeah, the toad
[00:12:01] Bobby Lennox: medicine.
[00:12:01] John Clarke: Yeah. What, what's- Yeah. How intense is it? I mean, what kinds of effects do people generally notice?
[00:12:10] Bobby Lennox: Yeah. So it's 5-MeO-DMT is the, the most intense medicine, um, that you can work with in terms of just the, um, the intensity over a, a short time span.
[00:12:21] Bobby Lennox: Mm-hmm. Um, so it's about a half hour, um, for each individual experience. Um, but it really kind of takes you out of yourself. I always call it high-fiving God, because you basically just elevate to a level where you're able to tap into kind of a collective consciousness. You're able to realize that you and I are not separate.
[00:12:40] Bobby Lennox: We're just the universe experiencing itself in, in different ways. Um, and we can get a little bit spiritual and, and woo-woo in this conversation, but I think there's so much value in that for a lot of these execs that I work with, because so much of it is in the tangible world that they deal with on a regular basis- Yeah
[00:12:58] Bobby Lennox: that getting that, [00:13:00] you know, usually we say it's a 10,000 or 50,000-foot view, but this is like a million-foot view- Yeah ... where you're really able to go super, super high, get some more kind of soul-led and, and heart-led context for why we're here living this life. Um, and we're not on this planet in this lifetime just to build a company or just to, you know, be financially wealthy.
[00:13:23] Bobby Lennox: Mm-hmm. Um, that purpose element really comes through super clearly for a lot of people. Mm-hmm. Um, and so it is this kind of overwhelming experience where you're like, "Oh my God, can it all be this big? Can it all be this wonderful and, and interconnected?" Um, and I think that ability to sort of glimpse the beyond for a short period of time lets you arrive back in your body and in your, your present place, um, with a renewed appreciation for where you are and, and what you're doing.
[00:13:54] Bobby Lennox: Um, I always say it's the same as traveling to another country where you get to experience the culture and the [00:14:00] people and the, the conversations and, and activity there, and then you come back to where you reside and say, "You know what? I want to bring some of those things that I just-" Yeah ... "experienced while traveling to my every day."
[00:14:11] John Clarke: Yeah. It's, it's funny you mention that because, um- Well, one is I, I really connect with what you're talking about and, and something I do a lot in my work, sounds like we do really similar work, to be honest, um- Yeah ... just by different, different means, uh, is connecting people to their spirituality, whatever that means to them.
[00:14:30] John Clarke: And many people-
[00:14:31] Bobby Lennox: Yeah ...
[00:14:31] John Clarke: have not been asked that in a long time or ever, or they just know they went to a Baptist church, you know, when they were in fifth grade 'cause they were forced to. Yeah. And then, like, a lot of Californians are, like, not super religious and, you know.
[00:14:45] Bobby Lennox: Right.
[00:14:45] John Clarke: Um, so, uh, just loosening that definition to say, um, your connection to anything that's unseen or anything greater than yourself or, like, the love you have for your dog when you look down at him- [00:15:00] Yes
[00:15:00] John Clarke: during our session and have that connection, or you're in Muir Woods, and you're like, "Oh my God, these trees have been here for," you know- Yeah ... "longer than me." Uh, whatever that is, like, I, I think is such a great anchor for the work, um, because a lot of my clients are in this analytical, practical, you know, gotta deliver on things sort of vibe.
[00:15:22] John Clarke: Um-
[00:15:23] Bobby Lennox: Yeah ...
[00:15:23] John Clarke: so I just think there's so much to tap into there. Um-
[00:15:27] Bobby Lennox: Truly. Yeah. Yeah. And I think wonder and curiosity are such valuable assets- Yeah ... for anybody to have in- Yeah ... just living life in general. Um, but I think the conversation around, um, divesting spirituality from religion or divesting religion- Yeah
[00:15:42] Bobby Lennox: from spirituality maybe, um, is a really important one for a lot of us to be having right now, um, because anything can be spiritual. Like you said, like cuddling my dog on the couch can be a spiritual act. Cooking a meal can be a spiritual act. Um, it doesn't have to be [00:16:00] defined and codified and kind of, um, you know, restricted to a doctrine or, or anything like that.
[00:16:06] Bobby Lennox: Um, it's really about how you connect to something that's a little bit greater than just your individual self.
[00:16:12] John Clarke: Yeah. The, the other piece, um, i- in, uh well, ba- backing up, you know- As a therapist, especially, you know, someone who's licensed, like I, I'm really aware that we have a bit of power. And so a lot of times clients come to me and they go, "What do you think about this?"
[00:16:27] John Clarke: Right? Or I had a client- Mm ... who was like, "What do you think about, um, Ibogaine?" He, you know, he went to Mexico to do Ibogaine. Um-
[00:16:33] Bobby Lennox: Yeah ...
[00:16:34] John Clarke: I, I really try to be as agnostic as possible to all things and be curious and go, "I don't know much about that. Let's look into it together," or- Yeah ... "Tell me what's exciting about that and also what scares you."
[00:16:46] John Clarke: Um, the same way if they're choosing a religion, right? I think it's important for me to be agnostic and go, "Let me help you evaluate how your X, Y, and Z is working for you," whether it's- Yeah ... your job or your religion or your, [00:17:00] um, Lexapro, right? Um, a, a kind of a qualm I guess I have with like mountaintop experiences, these peak- Mm-hmm
[00:17:07] John Clarke: experiences is I'm, I'm, I'm all about it and I'm also know that people get back to real life and they- Yeah ... clock into work and they have to like run meetings and be on Slack and get your time sheet in. And the connection- Right ... you might have like when I studied abroad and was like, "Oh, my gosh, I'm European now," and I come back, you know and you're like- Yeah
[00:17:30] John Clarke: "I'm gonna take a long lunch and I'm gonna be really balanced, and I'm gonna like, I don't know, bike everywhere." And then a weekend- Yeah ... you're like, "I'm gonna get in my car and- Sure ... eat McDonald's and, you know, just be a, be an American." Um, so like the, the connection to that can fade, or even with- Yeah
[00:17:46] John Clarke: people that have r- these breakthrough moments with psychedelics, the connection with that can, can fade. So how do you help, uh, make sure that it doesn't?
[00:17:55] Bobby Lennox: Yeah. Well, I think there are two really important things, um, in there that you covered. I think, [00:18:00] um, I'll address the, the first, which is, um, the ego of the practitioner, uh, which I think is- Mm
[00:18:06] Bobby Lennox: is really an important thing. Mm. And, um, for me, but my entire kind of focus or, or marketing claim for what I do is, you know, around ego death dispatch, is that leaders actually have an obligation to be in greater relationship with their egos. Mm. Not to completely dissolve the ego, because that's impossible- Yeah
[00:18:27] Bobby Lennox: um, but really to understand where the ego grips the wheel and, and takes control versus where we allow ourselves to simply flow and, and exist as autonomous individuals at our core. Um, and I think- What you described is really wonderful to hear in that you as somebody with power in the situation as a licensed therapist, um, are not overly influencing anybody else's decision- Yeah
[00:18:55] Bobby Lennox: because of what you think is important for them to know or what your personal [00:19:00] preferences are, or even just flexing your muscles in that position of power to be like, "Well, as your therapist, I should say." Um, and I think what's also really critical for practitioners in the medical-- in the medicine space, um, in the psychedelic world is to have that same perspective.
[00:19:19] Bobby Lennox: And my belief is I am not a shaman. I am not a healer. I am a facilitator. My job is to be of service to my clients and the medicine so that they can have the best possible outcomes. Um, and so dissolving my own ego in that way so that it's not about me. It's not about how great I am or how experienced I am.
[00:19:40] Bobby Lennox: It's about them and how I can best be a caretaker for their journey. Um- Really important, and not everybody in the psychedelic space has that same perspective. A lot of people that I've seen and a lot of people that I've worked with, their ego and their ability to be the healer or the change maker for other people [00:20:00] is the thing that leads the conversation.
[00:20:02] Bobby Lennox: Um, and I've found time after time that that always leads, leads people astray and, um, leads the practitioner down a road that maybe isn't the, the best way to, to go. Um, and the second point that you made about, um, kind of integration and, and coming back- Mm-hmm ... to the scaffolding and the machine of everyday life that they've built for themselves, um, I usually refer to that as the Monday dilemma, um, where, you know, you go, you do a medicine ceremony on Friday or Saturday.
[00:20:32] Bobby Lennox: You're in this beautiful space where everything is expansive and all possibilities are there, and then you go back to your job on Monday morning, and that's the dilemma is all that scaffolding that the old you has built is still there running on its own just waiting for you. Um, and so the thing that I always say to my clients is that working with the medicine is kind of the very interesting, active part of the experience that everybody likes to talk about [00:21:00] at a dinner table.
[00:21:01] John Clarke: Hmm.
[00:21:01] Bobby Lennox: The real work comes in, and fifty percent of the work, at least fifty percent, is integration, and it's how we take the insights from our experiences, get a real understanding of them, and wrap our heads and our hands and our hearts around them so that we say, "These are the important things that I don't wanna lose.
[00:21:20] Bobby Lennox: Here's how I build a structure for myself to actually integrate this and incorporate it into- Yeah ... my day-to-day life so I don't lose it by the end of week one or the end of week two." Um, and so that kind of structure and intentional planning for it, um, I think is really important and not leaving people on the mountaintop or as a practitioner, me still sitting on the mountaintop while all of my clients have now walked and are, are back down at the, the foot of the mountain.
[00:21:47] Bobby Lennox: Um, it's really about walking that path with them every step of the way so that I can make sure that they are as successful as possible.
[00:21:56] John Clarke: Uh, this idea of an ego death, um, [00:22:00] what is it from your perspective? Yeah. And why is it so, uh, central to the work you do?
[00:22:07] Bobby Lennox: Yeah. Well, I think as we go through life, um, our identities are formed based off of our experiences, our interactions, other people around us, and we tend to incorporate things outside of ourselves into our sense of, of identity.
[00:22:26] Bobby Lennox: Um, you know, let's say you've been working in a job at a specific company for 15 years, part of your identity is that role that you have at that company and being a part of that company to whatever extent. Um, but that's not really the, the you that's underneath all of it.
[00:22:42] John Clarke: Yeah.
[00:22:42] Bobby Lennox: And so for me, ego death is about creating a very clear line of delineation between the performed self and the actual self and the actual identity underneath all of it.
[00:22:55] Bobby Lennox: And oftentimes that line doesn't exist for a lot of people, [00:23:00] and it's very hard for them to navigate the external self versus the internal self.
[00:23:06] John Clarke: Mm-hmm.
[00:23:06] Bobby Lennox: Um, through a lot of work, whether it's through therapy or psychedelics or IFS or, you know, even just breathwork and meditation, um, there's a lot of modalities by which people can start to identify the performed self, um, versus the, the true identity that lies underneath it.
[00:23:25] Bobby Lennox: And for me, it's not necessarily about eradicating the performed self- Yeah ... it's simply about understanding it. Um, because that's-- If we're talking about IFS, um, a lot of our protectors help kind of inform the, the performed self a little bit more and craft that identity externally. Um, so that way they're, they're creating that boundary, um, for the internal version of ourselves that needs the protection.
[00:23:51] Bobby Lennox: Mm-hmm. Um, and so ultimately it comes down to, um, kind of the, the ability to do the work and make the investment to make that line as [00:24:00] clear as possible for oneself.
[00:24:02] John Clarke: Yeah.
[00:24:02] Bobby Lennox: Um, to say, "This is who I truly am at my core, and this is who I'm being when I'm out in the world and, and interacting with things around me."
[00:24:12] John Clarke: Um, I got accused the other day by a client of, um, of being a Buddhist because, um, It was like, I don't know. It was like there I went talking about, um, holding things loosely again, right? Yeah. Or the client, like, was gonna have a difficult conversation with someone, I can't remember if it was, like, a coworker or, like, their mom, and they were really
[00:24:37] John Clarke: They had a lot of expectations about how this other person was gonna behave and how they were gonna take it. Mm. Right? Yeah. And if they say this, I'm gonna say that. And if they say this, I'm gonna say that, right? And I'm, like, really hoping she'll, like, hear me. Um, and so much of what I do, and if, if you had to slot this into like a therapy modality, it'd be acceptance and commitment therapy, um- Yeah
[00:24:57] John Clarke: is can you go into it [00:25:00] and hold it all very loosely knowing that you- Yeah ... you're wanting to say this thing to this person and quote, "Speak your truth," and, um, it could go this way, it could go that way. Yeah. Um, how do you hold it loosely? How do you loosen your grip on the handlebars of, of life? Um, 'cause I just see that a lot of suffering comes from clinging too tightly about-
[00:25:18] Bobby Lennox: It does
[00:25:19] John Clarke: what the universe owes me or what my company should be worth versus, like, what these investors say it's worth or whatever. Yeah. Um, and so that, that's just a lot of the work I do, is just, "Hey, no- yeah, I'm noticing how, um, you've already decided how this person should behave, and if they don't, um, it's y- you know, it, it's gonna just drive you up the wall."
[00:25:41] John Clarke: Yeah. And so how do we loosen that grip, um, uh, just a little bit? I, uh, you know, this, this ego death piece, um, I was in high school and y- you know you're in high school and you come home and, um, my mom is like, "Did you hear so-and-so died?" Um, and it's just like, "Who is that?" [00:26:00] Um, and I remember it was, like, um, a guy who was, like, a hand surgeon in our town or something, and he was, like, the best.
[00:26:08] John Clarke: Mm. Like, the guy you would go to for, like, orthopedic surgery. Um- Yeah ... and he developed some sort of neurological issue to where he couldn't operate anymore. Um, and he killed himself right away.
[00:26:18] Bobby Lennox: Mm.
[00:26:18] John Clarke: And I thought A- again, I was just a teenager, but for some reason or obvious reasons, I thought about that, and it really, like, stuck with me, and I was like-
[00:26:29] Bobby Lennox: Yeah
[00:26:29] John Clarke: so if you can't do your job all of a sudden, you're like, "I'm gonna kill myself." Um, and, and not to be, like, um, you know, too, uh, dramatic about this, but sometimes when I hear clients talking, I think, "Gosh, you're, um, you're so identified with this job or this startup or this whatever," um- Yeah ... that, or if people seeing you this way, that if it went away tomorrow or if you retire someday and wake up the day after you retire, it's like, who, who is that guy?
[00:26:58] John Clarke: Who are you? You know? Yeah. If [00:27:00] this guy had no other answer other than, like, "I'm the best surgeon in this little town in Southwest Virginia," you know? Yeah. And that just, that just terrified me and still kind of does. So I just... It's like it, none of this is really mine, or this, this job or this desk, this office I'm in, um, that's just a thing I have to practice all the time, um- Yeah
[00:27:21] John Clarke: 'cause, 'cause the other, the ego in me wants to control it and reduce the risk of it happening and make sure I'm like, I'm the one controlling the narrative, right? That's just very human for us to wanna
[00:27:32] Bobby Lennox: control. Yeah. Yeah, it is. Um, and I think oftentimes, um, a lot of people when they first get into understanding ego work or just the concept of ego death, um, they hold it in their minds with kind of the idea of combat, where- Yeah
[00:27:48] Bobby Lennox: okay, the ego is against me- Yeah ... or I have to o- I have to fix it- Yeah ... or I have to kill it. I have to kill it. Um, and I think the ego term, or the term ego death actually does a disservice to- Yeah,
[00:27:58] John Clarke: I would
[00:27:58] Bobby Lennox: agree ... what it actually [00:28:00] is. Um, and I, I wish there was a better term like ego relationship or ego partnership, um, where, you know, that maybe was a bit of a closer description.
[00:28:10] Bobby Lennox: Um, but what I've found is the more people can incorporate unique experiences into their lives, whether it's through travel, whether it's through meeting other people, whether it's, you know, going and taking, like, a pottery class or kickboxing class for the first time, um, I find if you're able to inform the ego a little bit more, if you're able to inform kind of your core self a little bit more about just the breadth of everything that's out there to be experienced in life, the, the hold that any one part of our identities has over us starts to loosen a little bit more- Yeah
[00:28:47] Bobby Lennox: because we see possibility if we're approaching it with curiosity. Um, and I think it gives us a really beautiful place from which to assess anything in our lives, um, no matter big or [00:29:00] small, to say, "Okay, do I have to be this one thing, or is this one thing something really critical for me in my survival?"
[00:29:08] John Clarke: Well, to me it, it all comes down to worth, and a lot of the work I do in psychotherapy is about worth. Yeah. Clients might not identify it as such, but, um, their anxiety might be tied to their fears around their company failing or getting fired or whatever- Mm-hmm ... because it would inform their worth, right?
[00:29:26] John Clarke: Yeah. Or it would confirm that I'm in fact worthless like I feel- Yeah ... I was. Or like I felt- I'm not good enough ... when I was six. I'm not good enough, right? Yeah. And so, um, it, it's like, yeah, again, who would this guy be if this went away? And I asked another client recently who was hinging all of his worth on his company success, very dangerous.
[00:29:48] John Clarke: Mm-hmm. Um, I, I guess it's kind of like, I don't know. I had a really nice interaction this morning with, uh, the woman that, like, works at the coffee shop down the street, and I, like, go there a lot. I'm starting to, like, get to know [00:30:00] these people, and it's like I had asked this client, like, "Is it not enough to just be a good person?"
[00:30:06] Bobby Lennox: Mm. Yeah. Like,
[00:30:07] John Clarke: be kind to, like, the lady at the, the cafe or, like, the person on the street or the whatever. I just, I think that's kind of, like, underrated, I guess. Yeah. 'Cause we're just so obsessed with, like, being somebody or, like, um, yeah, I don't know, being special I guess. Yeah. We, we wanna be special, and I have, there's parts of me that wanna be special.
[00:30:26] John Clarke: I mean, like, I'm a, a guy with a freaking podcast, right? It's like you know, some part of me is like, "I have something to say," you know?
[00:30:33] Bobby Lennox: Yeah.
[00:30:34] John Clarke: So. Yeah. There you go.
[00:30:36] Bobby Lennox: Yeah. I mean, I think, um, you know, that's always been true. Just, uh, by nature, human beings are social creatures. We live in community. And so having a sense of self-worth is always essential, but there's always a perceived sense of, of worth that we have for others or others- Yeah
[00:30:56] Bobby Lennox: have for us- Yeah ... um, which always comes into play. And I [00:31:00] think one of the things that I've noticed is, um, you know, with all the stories of success that we see in the news and the media where they talk about the unicorn founders or the multi-billionaires or anything like that, um, we've had a lot more exposure to things of that nature and content of that nature over the past, you know, two decades, um- Yeah
[00:31:24] Bobby Lennox: than humans ever, ever had. Yeah. And social media certainly has contributed to that, and I think- Yeah ... that there is, um, an ever-present understanding among people that if you're not somehow noteworthy in some way, you are not worthy.
[00:31:40] John Clarke: Yeah.
[00:31:40] Bobby Lennox: And, um, I think it, for me, reflects the need now so more than ever, um, for people to really cultivate that internal sense of worth and an understanding- Yeah
[00:31:53] Bobby Lennox: simply of, of who they are, um- Yeah ... which then leads to ease and peace rather than [00:32:00] anxiety and frustration.
[00:32:01] John Clarke: Yeah. Um, we're- we gotta wrap up here in a minute, and I- I'm curious- Yeah ... any, like, closing thoughts, and then how people can find you. Um, did you ever see the movie I Heart Huckabees?
[00:32:13] Bobby Lennox: I have, yes.
[00:32:15] John Clarke: So for folks that haven't seen it, um, I think about this one scene a lot.
[00:32:19] John Clarke: So the, the, they're like existential detectives is like the premise. Mm-hmm. It's really a silly movie, but, like, profound in silly ways. But there's this scene within their office. They're in their office, and the guy that they're helping is like, "How am I not myself?" And then they all get stuck on this question and so- Yeah
[00:32:37] John Clarke: the, the detectives get stuck on it too, and they're like, "How am I not myself? How am I not myse- how am I not myself?" And they, you know- Mm-hmm ... they're like, they're all spiraling together but- Yeah,
[00:32:47] Bobby Lennox: in a common loop. Yeah.
[00:32:48] John Clarke: Yeah. It's, it's a funny movie. Uh, but yeah. Um, well, Bobby, it, it's been really great to, to talk to you.
[00:32:56] John Clarke: Like I said, it sounds like there's a lot of overlap in our, our work, interestingly [00:33:00] enough. But, um, yeah, anything you feel like is missing from the conversation, and then, um, of course, how people can, um, you know, find out more about your work or even, you know, reach out and work with you.
[00:33:10] Bobby Lennox: Yeah. John, it's been such a privilege.
[00:33:12] Bobby Lennox: Thank you for the time. Um, I think the one thing I would add is, um, what I've found is that getting okay with the discomfort of the process and being in the in-between is actually where the magic is.
[00:33:27] John Clarke: Yeah.
[00:33:27] Bobby Lennox: Um, because whether you're doing therapy and you're, you're doing your first therapy session, and you don't know where it's gonna go, or you're doing psychedelic medicine for the first time or anything else that you're doing for the first time, or anything that you're doing for the hundredth time, and you're still in the in-between, and there's a lot of discomfort there, um, sit with the discomfort because that holds a lot of information for you about what is being let go of and what you're embracing.
[00:33:52] Bobby Lennox: Um, so that's really kind of a magical place that most humans don't love to be in, but it's actually... that's [00:34:00] the, the core essence of being human and being able to change and, and transform. Um, and then, yeah, if people are interested in learning more, um, my website for medicine work is jaguarhouse.org. Um, you can find me on Instagram.
[00:34:14] Bobby Lennox: I'm _bobbylennox with two Ns in Lennox. Um, or you can reach out to me. My email is bobby@jaguarhouse.org, and always happy to, to have any conversations with anybody who wants to talk about anything.
[00:34:27] John Clarke: Perfect. Easy enough. We'll, we'll make sure to include those links, um, here in the show, in, in the episode.
[00:34:33] John Clarke: And, um, yeah, Bobby, thank you so much again for, for being here and, um, yeah, I'd love to have you back at some point for a part two conversation 'cause I know we're just, uh, scratching the surface.
[00:34:43] Bobby Lennox: Yeah, I'd love that. Thank you so much for the time, John.
[00:34:46] John Clarke: You're welcome. Yeah, keep in touch.
[00:34:48] Bobby Lennox: Yeah.