Navigating Non-Monogamy & Attachment with Jessica Fern
Navigating Non-Monogamy & Attachment with Jessica Fern
In this episode of Going Inside, John Clarke sits down with Jessica Fern—IFS-trained trauma therapist and author of Polysecure—to explore what really happens inside our systems when we open up relationships.
They unpack the intersection of attachment, trauma, and non-monogamy, and how IFS brings clarity and healing to the parts that get activated. Whether you're a therapist, curious about ethical non-monogamy, or working on your own attachment wounding, this conversation offers powerful insight, practical frameworks, and plenty of aha moments.
Key Takeaways
Why "opening up" a relationship often opens old wounds first—and how IFS can help you meet the infant parts crying out for safety.
The surprising ways codependency, polyamory, and secure attachment collide—and what people get wrong about each.
How the "shame triangle" shows up in modern relationships—and why your inner critic may be the loudest part in the room.
Guest: Jessica Fern
Jessica Fern holds a Master’s degree in Conflict Resolution, is a Certified Clinical Trauma Professional, a trained Internal Family Systems (IFS) practitioner, and an integrative therapist drawing on 25 years of experience in somatic, narrative, psychotherapeutic, and spiritual healing modalities. She is the internationally recognized author of Polysecure, The Polysecure Workbook, Polywise, and her upcoming book Transforming the Shame Triangle.
Through her international private practice, Jessica works with individuals, couples, and multi-partner relationships to break free from reactive patterns, cultural conditioning, insecure attachment, and past trauma—empowering them to embody new possibilities in life and love.
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Transcript:
Jessica Fern: [00:00:00] What I've seen is that the opening up process or transitioning to different types of non-monogamy can expose all the cracks in the foundation of your relationships. So, and usually there's a need for like this backlog of repair and conflict resolution that people haven't done. Yeah, and it's really overwhelming 'cause it's like we have all this trust stuff to repair, but we're trying to do this other thing right now and how do we do both?
John Clarke: Going Inside is a podcast on a mission to help people heal from trauma and reconnect with their authentic self. Join me trauma therapist John Clarke for guest interviews, real life therapy sessions, and soothing guided meditations. Whether you're navigating your own trauma, helping others heal from trauma, or simply yearning for a deeper understanding of yourself, going inside is your companion on the path to healing and self-discovery.
Download free guided meditations and apply to work with me one-on-one at johnclarketherapy.com. Thanks for being here. Let's dive in.
Jessica [00:01:00] Fern holds a Master's degree in conflict resolution, is a certified clinical trauma professional, a trained IFS practitioner and an integrative therapist drawing on 25 years of experience and somatic narrative psychotherapeutic and spiritual healing modalities. She's the internationally recognized author of Poly Secure, the Poly Secure Workbook and Poly Wise.
Um, Jessica, thank you so much for. Being here. What else should people know about who you are and how you got here?
Jessica Fern: Yeah. Thank you, John. Thank you for having me. Um, that's a big question. Yeah. They'll learn as we talk, right? It's, yeah.
John Clarke: People will, some people love it. Some people hate it. They're like, can you get more specific?
Right. A therapist question, you know?
Jessica Fern: I get that a lot when I'm like, so how are you? And people, some people can launch right in say that, and some people are like, I dunno how to answer that question. Right.
John Clarke: Yeah, I know, right? Yeah. A therapist asking it is a, has a different context.
Jessica Fern: It has a different meaning. Right? How are you really,
John Clarke: Yeah, [00:02:00] exactly. How are you really doing? You know, how are we doing? Yeah. Yeah. So, um, but yeah, I'm curious just your, a little bit of your story in, in terms of, um, yeah, how you. Uh, got here as a, um, as a practitioner, as an author. I mean, it's really interesting that you've got these, um, these books in a really specific topic area.
And, um, yeah, just what else people should know.
Jessica Fern: Yeah, I mean, I think my path has been very circuitous and yet there's always been these threads of psychological healing, spiritual healing, you know, doing deep inner inner work, whatever the modality or the title was. Yeah. But I was specifically, um, doing psychotherapy and had a lot of couples clients and had couples starting to come to me wanting to open up their relationship.
And I realized I don't have any training in this. And then when I looked up and I was [00:03:00] like, there are no trainings in this and the only thing I've seen about this professionally really kind of pathologizes this. So I realized I had to figure it out and give my clients something different than pathologizing them for.
John Clarke: Mm-hmm..
Jessica Fern: You know, the practices of non-monogamy or even the identity of being. Nonmonogamous.
John Clarke: Mm-hmm..
Jessica Fern: Um, so it was really in that dive discovery, figuring it out, um, with myself and clients that led to the first book and the second actually that body, those books really go together, poly secure and poly wise.
That, um, kind of brought me into authorship.
John Clarke: That's great. Yeah. I remember, um, this was, yeah, well over 10 years ago, but I had a client out here in San Francisco who was, um, in an open relationship and, um, she just started teaching me about it. Yeah. And teaching me the lingo and, uh, yeah. You know, we had, [00:04:00] we already had an established working relationship and were doing great work therapeutically, um, and. I was, you know, open to. Supporting her with this, this piece of her life. And, uh, the kind of culture around it was a lot of the, you know, the, the discussions. Um, and then sure enough, like three months later someone called me and they're like, you're the therapist that specializes in a relationships. Right.
Jessica Fern: It doesn't take much. Right.
John Clarke: I was like, I can, I guess I am now I know. Like three words, you know?
Jessica Fern: You're right. Exactly. I think that's kind of what happens to you. I like one book. Yeah. Right. Once I was working with one or two, three couples and suddenly they were all like, there's someone because Yeah. Go.
You're, you know, you're describing a level of openness. Um, and unfortunately, that's what so many people don't get with their therapists. Yeah. They're just told like, this is hard. Go back to monogamy. Yeah. Or you have an attachment disorder or you have a sex addiction, you know, that's just [00:05:00] like, you know, so yeah.
They really come to us, I think usually quite wounded by other therapists.
John Clarke: Yes.
Jessica Fern: Yeah.
John Clarke: Well, and it's what therapists may see could be skewed in that. Um, and this, this was my experience early on, was that a lot of what I was seeing was ways in which, um, polyamory was not working for people. Yeah. And so that's also a very skewed, uh.
You know, kind of sample in itself.
Jessica Fern: But couldn't we say that about monogamous and divorce? Like, aren't all of our monogamous clients also not doing very well in their really, you know, like they're all coming 'cause they're struggling, right?
John Clarke: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, um, yeah. Once you started doing more of this work, tell me more about.
How you develop further developed like this specialty and then got to the point where you had enough to write a book about it.
Jessica Fern: Yeah. I started to see the patterns and some of that was my previous research training and grounded theory, which [00:06:00] is instead of imposing the theory as the researcher onto the data.
And often unintentionally making it fit the theories. We really go theory list and just listen to the narratives. And then put together, what am I hearing again and again and again.
John Clarke: Hmm.
Jessica Fern: And so that's what I did with my therapy sessions is, oh, what am I hearing again and again and again? Oh, I'm hearing attachment distress.
I'm hearing primal panic. I'm hearing, uh, challenges with a monogamous couple opening up and having codependency that's getting in the way of their polyamory, you know, like again and again and again. And so. I started to formulate that into, okay, here's sort of the main archetypal patterns I'm seeing at this point, and here's how to work through them.
John Clarke: Yeah,
Jessica Fern: yeah,
John Clarke: Yeah. So, um, I, I guess, [00:07:00] um. Can you say more about those patterns that the main ones you see even, even recently, like how, how has your understanding of all this evolved with even
Jessica Fern: evolved?
John Clarke: Yeah. The writing your of books, but also your, your own work.
Jessica Fern: Yeah, that's, that's great. Um. I'll say some of the patterns first, and then you know how it's even evolved since the books have come out.
But, um, one of the patterns is attachment distress that, you know, surprise, trying to forge attachment relationships with more than one person in a society that is very heteronormative and mono normative, um, can create. Challenges uncharted territory. You know, people get surprised that they're having anxious or disorganized or avoid an attachment come up when they previously didn't experience that within themselves.
So that was one thing, right? And, and particularly that when there was an original couple or there is a primary couple. Um, that when they're [00:08:00] apart, there can be attachment to stress just like a baby that is separated from its caretaker. And that seemed kind of primal panic. Um, and I'll jump actually to what evolved with that.
'cause at first I was really doing a lot of polyvagal. Techniques for people to help them with the primal panic. They're, they're home alone, their partner's on a date, they're melting down. And so we do a combination of like EFT, whereas like a lot of the partner kind of being a bookend of meeting the attachment needs.
And then when the person is alone doing a lot of polyvagal theory stuff. And now I have learned that in every primal attachment meltdown I have worked with. There is an IFS perspective of like a screaming infant part.
John Clarke: Mm-hmm.. Yeah.
Jessica Fern: And that when we work with the part, it just changes the game completely.
John Clarke: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Jessica Fern: Yeah. So, um, the other patterns I [00:09:00] see are. Relationships that actually aren't best well matched. And it's not even usually conscious like, let's try this, but it's sort of trying it and you're like, this isn't a good match in the first place. So it doesn't work very well. Um, as I already mentioned, longstanding relationships.
You know, develop codependent patterns. That's not even a criticism, that's just like neutral. Yeah. It's just what happens.
John Clarke: Right.
Jessica Fern: Um, we get very enmeshed when we share life with people, and it's hard to be differentiated and polyamorous when you're codependent in an in one relationship. What I've seen is that the opening up process or transitioning to different types of non-monogamy.
Can expose all the cracks in the foundation of your relationships. So, and usually there's a need for like this backlog of repair and conflict resolution that people haven't done. Yeah. And it's really [00:10:00] overwhelming 'cause it's like we have all this trust stuff to repair, but we're trying to do this other thing right now and how do we do both?
John Clarke: IFS is simple but not easy, on the surface, it's about parts and self. But when you're in the room with a client, things can get complex fast. Helping someone meet a protective part or wounded exile, that takes skill and most importantly, it takes safety. My name is John Clarke, trauma therapist and IFS therapist, and in this free webinar for therapists and practitioners, we're gonna explore the subtleties that make IFS so powerful and how to navigate them with more clarity and confidence.
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Is it fair to say a lot of folks come to non-monogamy as, uh. [00:11:00] As a response to some of those unhealed cracks in the foundation or hoping this would help, and then opening up the relationship often points them back to. These, these cracks?
Jessica Fern: Uh, not necessarily, but that is a percentage of what happens.
Yes. There's definitely a percentage of people that are feeling not so satisfied in their relationship. They're wanting more and they are looking for more, but they're not looking to just jump ship necessarily or like as the exit strategy of that relationship. But they are maybe looking to fill certain needs.
Right. But a lot of people do this because they feel like this is who they are. Separate from the quality of the relationships that they're in. Right? That this, they feel like they, who they are as someone who is exploring love or sex with multiple people. Yeah. So really people discuss it as an orientation and for some people I think that really is the case.
And for some [00:12:00] people it's not necessarily the case. It's more of a lifestyle choice they're making.
John Clarke: Yeah. Yeah. And. It's okay if this is, um, anecdotally your, uh, input or reaction to this question, but do you have a sense that, or do you have the opinion that people are generally. More wired for non-monogamy or as, as a, a baseline, or some people are more wired for monogamy.
Jessica Fern: I see when I, I did a lot of research on this qualitative, you know, interviews with people and I see it from that as a spectrum. And on one end we'd have monogamy, the other end polyamory. And the people on the far end of the spectrum all describe it as the way they're wired, whether it's monogamous or polyamorous.
It's like, yeah. Fundamentally, this is all I can do. This is who I am. That's it. And then there's a lot of people in the middle who feel like they could shift back and forth. It [00:13:00] depends on phase of life or relationship person they're with. Yeah. So I do think there can be a wiring to it, and yet there doesn't have to be in order to do it.
John Clarke: Yeah.
Jessica Fern: Yeah.
John Clarke: And how, how do people figure out their wiring other than through experimenting?
Jessica Fern: Yeah, some people, um, feel like they have not done well in monogamy, whether it's lots of cheating or maybe there hasn't been actual cheating, but there's serial monogamy. Um, and so they'll describe feeling like they failed at monogamy or it was just never a good fit.
Whereas some people just notice the desire and urge that's in them, that's longing to be expressed.
John Clarke: Yeah, makes sense. Yeah, makes sense.
Jessica Fern: And then experimenting. Yeah. And some people, you know, depending on like your microculture and what year it was and um, some people are starting out [00:14:00] this way, which is amazing.
John Clarke: Mm-hmm..
Jessica Fern: So just feel like that's an option on the team.
John Clarke: Mm-hmm.. Yeah. Yeah. Especially in perhaps more progressive parts of the country. I mean, I live in San Francisco, but I'm from Southern Virginia. Yeah. So, uh, probably not as common where I'm from, but quite common where I live now and barely common or increasingly common among my clients.
Jessica Fern: Yeah, I mean, you definitely live in sort of one of the meccas of non-monogamous
John Clarke: Yeah.
Jessica Fern: Culture. Yeah.
John Clarke: Yeah. So, yeah. You mentioned that for many folks it, um, it activates this a very young part and exile of, of sorts and that that is often I imagine where the work is then.
Jessica Fern: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That when I really started bringing parts work to
non-monogamy. It just changed helping [00:15:00] people, which, um, it still can be a difficult, bumpy road, but it just really changed things for us to start talking about. Um, your monogamous parts and what those are saying versus your curious polyamorous parts. Right. Or your loyal parts to certain ideas. Right. And especially when there's distress, the parts that are struggling and what they need.
John Clarke: Mm-hmm.. Yeah. Well, you know, uh, outside of, um, this conversation of ethical non-monogamy, um, I think a lot of what something I love that IFS. Offers and teaches is when we are anxious, uh, we can turn toward that part and be there with that part, and that doing that internal attachment work makes us more available for the external attachment, right?
That's also not to say, um, that you're always the problem or it's always your responsibility, or that maybe a partner isn't actually [00:16:00] hurting you or like causing harm, but.
Jessica Fern: Yeah, exactly it. Yes, yes. To both points, yeah.
John Clarke: Mm-hmm.. Yeah. But it offers that, that invitation or that teaches that skill, I suppose.
Jessica Fern: Yeah, and there's really something about mono normative culture that trains us to turn our partner into the source. Exactly. And then we have a, a lot of like young parts and teenage parts that are just totally hyperfocused or turn towards our partner as the source. So a lot of the work I do is. Training parts or just even letting parts know like, oh, let's turn, you can turn back to the person.
Like, I'm the source. I'm here for you. And you know, yeah. My partner actually can't meet those needs for you as this part only I can.
John Clarke: Yeah.
Jessica Fern: And it makes such a difference.
John Clarke: Yeah.
Jessica Fern: And again, there still might be actual [00:17:00] legitimate relationship needs that your partner does need to be stepping up for and showing up for, but Right.
Those parts not grasping so much. Yeah. For the partner to do it.
John Clarke: Mm-hmm.. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe you can speak more about needs at large, because another thing I notice is a lot of folks who also like. Kind of try to get all their needs met either by one person or maybe by the wrong person, you know? Yeah. Uh, for instance, like a lot of my clients out here who are, uh, in tech or they're like very involved in their jobs, um, sometimes it's like their boss is also like their parent or their partner or their whatever, or their best friend.
It's like sometimes it's like, why aren't you making me feel seen? Or Why aren't you supporting me? Or why aren't you validating me? Or whatever. Right. It can be like, why are you not meeting? All the needs that I have. Um, yeah. Or whatever it is. And sometimes we can project those under our partners too. Um, and then that can also activate stuff in our partners of like, oh, I must be letting you down if I [00:18:00] can't meet every single need.
Jessica Fern: Right. It's one of these kind of falsehoods that we have this standard, that one partner supposed to meet all the needs, and yet we know that's like one human can't meet all the needs. Right. We know one parent can't meet all the needs of one child. Um, Aire Perel says it well, we have the, like, we're expecting one partner to meet the needs of what an entire village used to offer us in terms of connection and stimulation and ritual and presence and play and, you know, yeah.
So I forget why I heard this many years ago, but there was something that if you had less than three people in your life that you were like relying on and close to, it created dysfunctional dynamics. So if you only have one or two, you're probably experiencing some form of a dysfunctional enmeshment, [00:19:00] codependency that like, we really need three or more people that we're turning towards.
John Clarke: Mm-hmm..
Jessica Fern: Yeah.
John Clarke: Makes a lot of sense.
Jessica Fern: Right, right. I think we all know it, not just intuitively, we know it experientially that it rarely works to just be tuning into and depending on one person or for one person to be totally relying on us.
John Clarke: Mm-hmm..
Jessica Fern: Yeah.
John Clarke: Yeah, yeah. So, so for the folks that, um, I guess like do it well, so to speak
Jessica Fern: Mm-hmm..
John Clarke: Or, um. Y Yeah. What are they doing differently? And also like Yeah. How do your books kind of help them learn these skills?
Jessica Fern: Yeah. Um. In essence, they're slowing down and they're really considering everyone involved. And we can unpack that for a while. Like what it really means to consider your partner and not just follow [00:20:00] your agreements and then say, well, I followed our agreements even though I knew you were like crying in the next room.
Right? Like, what? What does it mean to really care for each other and. Respect each other and care for ourselves in this. A lot of the experience of, um, practicing non-monogamy is people learning that they matter for the first time, actually, right? In the experience of having multiple loves or lovers realizing that there usually wasn't enough self focus either, right?
John Clarke: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Fern: Yeah. So people are attuned to the attachment needs. They're looking to fill those attachment buckets, so to speak. Um, the people that don't do well are usually ones that are like racing to some kind of ideal finish line at the expense of themselves and their partners versus like, slow and steady wins the race is what I would say.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:21:00] And I've seen this thing where when people open up. Especially if you've been in a long-term committed relationship, it's almost like you're the age you were before you started that relationship. A lot of people have this, like they're 20 again, or they're a teenager again, yet they're in their thirties or forties or seventies opening up, and there's this period of adolescence that people go through with their polyamory and um, they can cause a lot of harm.
So. Even if it's happening, if people are starting to catch it and mitigate it and course correct, like those are people that are starting to do it really well.
John Clarke: Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah. But it makes sense that there's some, you know, dynamic of, of regression and going back to that place in time. And it's always fascinating to me when people have, um.
I don't know, been met very early, or [00:22:00] people that are like high school sweethearts and have been together, I know for decades. Right. And it's like, yeah, you must wonder what you would be like without this person or outside of this relationship, right? Or meeting during such a critical developmental stage, like high school or even college is, um.
You know, it's such a dynamic time in which we're like really figuring out who we are and individuating from parents and family and, uh, you know, autonomy is like a big theme and then coming together. Um, or also like, and also people that come together, um, through like traumatic things happening or, yeah.
Um, just through their wounding. Right. And a lot of attraction coming from wounding. Yeah. Is, is something I think a lot about, especially through this IFS lens.
Jessica Fern: Yes, absolutely. I do see it a lot where people have been together a really long time and I'm always surprised when it's been since high school or college, just 'cause it's, it's not my personal story or experience.
John Clarke: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Fern: [00:23:00] yeah.
John Clarke: Yeah, yeah, yeah. What, what, um, what, what else comes to mind around this? Or I guess, what do you want people to know in terms of, um, how you help or how your books help.
Jessica Fern: Yeah, I think what Poly Secure does is it really is for anybody, regardless of your relationship structure. Of how do you build a safe haven and a secure base?
How do you build a secure attachment with a partner or really anyone that you want a secure attachment with? Without me telling you you're supposed to be exclusive. And so I really combed through the suggestions and the prescriptions that, you know, people were giving and pulled out the monogamy and it's like, here's the essence of the things that we do.
John Clarke: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Fern: So that is, is helping people and even just to prioritize the attachment needs and the attachment system through all of this.
John Clarke: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Fern: Yeah. Because there can [00:24:00] be a heightened anxiety, attachment anxiety that happens when you can't just instantly merge with your second or third partner. 'cause you're, you're not single.
Right? Like there's a challenge in not being single. In regards to how we typically are taught to just leap into relationships or what the like relationship escalator looks like.
John Clarke: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jessica Fern: And then, yeah, poly is just getting into those other challenges of how do we look at things like codependency, how do we challenge and switch paradigms?
Um, but I have a chapter that gives exercises on parts and, you know, and really, especially for the people that are struggling. It is usually several parts that they have that are struggling.
John Clarke: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Fern: Five or six that are screaming, resisting, you know, and, and then, so it's hard to know. So I, [00:25:00] I really want people to make the decision whether this is for them or not, from self.
John Clarke: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Fern: Right. That the clarity of, yes, I actually do know myself and I am better off in an exclusive relationship, that that's a beautiful decision from self clarity.
John Clarke: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Fern: Right. Versus parts that are making the decision. And same thing, knowing that you wanna be doing that monogamy is coming from self.
John Clarke: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Fern: So, yeah, sorting through all those parts is priceless.
John Clarke: Mm-hmm.
Yeah. And I imagine a lot of parts come up once couples open their relationship a lot the first time. Yeah. A lot.
Jessica Fern: Mm-hmm.
John Clarke: And, and I imagine one of the, one of a number of fears that might come up is if we do this, what if you. Fall in love with someone else or leave me for someone else.
Yeah, right. Like how, how do you support couples through that?
Jessica Fern: Yeah.
John Clarke: Well, or do you just kind of honor it? That it, yeah.
Jessica Fern: Well, sometimes the point is falling in love with someone else, like more in, in [00:26:00] polyamory where it's like, yes, I am looking to have that kind of fall in love relationship with multiple people.
Um, but I was just talking with a couple client this morning and they were actually reflecting on like, we can't really put restrictions on falling in love 'cause like, how can we put restricted, you know, boundaries around feelings, right. So, um, a lot of people try to make that as a role not to fall in love and usually I see it backfire.
John Clarke: Mm-hmm.. Yeah. So what do you do instead?
Jessica Fern: Yeah. Well we talk a lot about, this is actually even usually changing the style that you kind of thought you signed up for. And this would be more of a polyamorous situation.
John Clarke: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Fern: And is that what you all want and really unpacking, um, is that what they wanna do?
What does it mean if they do it? All of that. Yeah, because I mean, just [00:27:00] because you're falling in love or have fallen in love doesn't mean this person is necessarily now central, but usually you want them to be so can they be more centered in your life or do they need to be more peripheral? So just figuring all of that out.
And it's different for every
John Clarke: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Fern: couple. Yeah. There was a second piece you said though, falling in love or leaving, is that what you said? Yeah. Yeah, I think it is a very common fear and I think it's, um, there's a healthy, like legitimate fear in there. There is, I mean, in any relationship, even monogamous, the statistics of cheating and divorce tell us.
This prob, you know, it's less likely to last in some ways.
John Clarke: Yeah. It's most likely to happen, right?
Jessica Fern: Yeah, exactly. So there is a real like, yeah, it's true. Your partner could leave you and you're kind of putting yourself out there a little bit more to maybe even have that be possible. But, [00:28:00] um, it's not about living from fear.
You know, a lot of this paradigm is about living from love and connection and so if. Your relationship is strong. Um, most likely you're not gonna have someone who's just picking up and leaving you unless there's really been like exiled parts, denied aspects of self trauma that hasn't been dealt with.
Right. And, and most likely the relationship would've ended anyway. It just accelerated the process.
John Clarke: Yeah,
Jessica Fern: yeah,
John Clarke: yeah. To your point, even in monogamous relationships, we, um. A, a lot of times it's like we try not to think about what if my partner left us?
But it's a very, it's a possibility, right?
Jessica Fern: It's a very real possibility.
John Clarke: Yeah. Very real possibility. Yeah. Yeah. But so many, so many people, naturally we, we just don't even want, want to look at our fears, which in turn kind of gives them even more power over us.
Jessica Fern: Yeah. I think that's one of the shifts is [00:29:00] that it's not that these realities don't exist in monogamy, but there's something about the structure of monogamy that lets us not look at them, and then we switch and transition into polyamory, non-monogamy, and it's like, oh, I can't not look at these anymore.
Yeah.
John Clarke: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, it, it sounds like a lot of it is also about, um. I guess tru truthfulness. Mm-hmm.. And a lot of what people, um, end up getting in trouble with is a lack of truthfulness. Yeah. Or, you know, do you have feelings for your coworker? No, I don't. When in fact you do, or to your point, or to your client's point, it's like those feelings just happen and maybe you're undeniable or denying your, um, inherent attraction to, to someone you know.
It's also your partner knows you're lying, but
Jessica Fern: Yeah. Right. Even with. Monogamous couples I know, or counsel, I always say like, it's, it's would be really [00:30:00] great to admit when there is attraction or feelings, that doesn't mean you act on them, but not to make that taboo in the relationship.
John Clarke: Yeah, yeah. Well it is.
It is very taboo, which adds more pressure and shame, uh, around it. And shame. It means things get buried. Right, right.
Jessica Fern: Yeah, exactly.
John Clarke: Yeah.
Jessica Fern: Yes. And I think when we're stuck in our own shame or looking through the lens of our shame parts, we really lose access to our relational parts.
John Clarke: Yeah.
Jessica Fern: And aren't in relationship with our partner in that moment.
We're really just in this sort of collapse self focus. Yeah.
John Clarke: Yeah.
Jessica Fern: Yeah.
John Clarke: Well, and we have like, um, I, I, I don't know if you ever. You know, reactance theory?
Jessica Fern: Mm-hmm.
John Clarke: yeah. So it makes me think of that too. Like basically, uh, a study I remember from like Gsec 1 0 1 is B basically when people's freedoms are.
Threatened [00:31:00] or constrained, they're statistically more likely to act in opposition. Right. So they would do this thing of like, you know, a a little patch of grass that says do not step on the grass. People are more likely to step on it. It's just like, you can't tell me what to do.
Jessica Fern: Right. No, that's exactly what happens.
Don't fall in love. It's like, oh, that's the fastest path of falling in love with someone else.
John Clarke: Yeah, exactly. Tell tell them not to.
Jessica Fern: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
John Clarke: But also, I don't, this might be a really cheesy example, but I think there's like some movie called Hall Pass.
Jessica Fern: Uh huh.
John Clarke: Where that one of the partners like gives the other permission to like explore outside of the relationship.
Jessica Fern: Mm-hmm.
John Clarke: You know, and then they, they do it and like, you know, find out they were, they loved what they had after all, or so, something like that.
Jessica Fern: But yeah, I mean. Often when people feel like they have the freedom in their relationships to explore love and connection and romance or sex with others, they're so grateful.
Like they really actually value those relationships even more because it's like, wow, [00:32:00] I can be all of me in this relationship, or I don't have to, you know, stuff myself into a certain way to be in this relationship.
John Clarke: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, it's kind of a paradox.
Jessica Fern: Yeah.
John Clarke: Right? Yeah. Yeah. So sometimes some people, we just like to feel like our freedoms are not limited, that our autonomy is truly ours.
And I guess, you know, again, as someone who doesn't really, um, have this specialty that you have, I was joking at the beginning, but, um, y you know, some people seem to have a even higher drive for autonomy than others. Yeah. And some people seem to have a really high drive for, um. I guess interdependence or like, you know, a healthy singular connection.
Jessica Fern: Yeah. I talk about this in Poly Secure. I also kind of use a spectrum of like, you know, we all are straddling the need for connection, [00:33:00] closeness, interdependence on like one end and then on the other end, autonomy, independence, choice, freedom, and that these are healthy. And in their healthy range, we can manage both.
We can go a little this way, we can go a little that way, you know, we can sort of like reins of, uh, riding a horse or something like you're
John Clarke: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Fern: using both reins. Um, but then the attachment styles or what can go too far into autonomy can then become withdrawal and isolation. Mm-hmm.. Right. Too much disconnection and then similar connection can become too far into loss of self.
And in measurement
John Clarke: Makes sense. Yeah.
Jessica Fern: So I connect that to the attachment styles as well. But that secure attachment is being able to hold both of those needs and manage them.
John Clarke: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Fern: Yeah. Yeah.
John Clarke: Yeah. Makes sense.
Jessica Fern: Yeah. [00:34:00] Mm-hmm.
John Clarke: yeah. Um, I had another question. Whoops. Just dropped my pen. Um. I had another question, but it's escaping me now.
Maybe it'll come back. Maybe it won't.
Jessica Fern: Right.
John Clarke: Yeah, yeah. Um, well, I guess, what else is next on your horizon? Like, is it another book? Is it another way of Yeah. Kind of furthering your work in research?
Jessica Fern: Yeah, it is another book. So I have a book coming out called Transforming the Shame Triangle. And it's not about relationships and non-monogamy at all.
It's, uh, inner parts work. And so identifying an internalized drama triangle. So the shame triangle is our inner critic, our shame, and then multiple escapers, the ways that we escape.
John Clarke: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Fern: And so it's, you know, fleshing out what the shame triangle is, how I [00:35:00] see it as this inner. Constellation of parts that have yet to meet someone who doesn't have those parts, and that these parts are either the central, like source of suffering or there's something else in our life, and it's these parts that are getting in the way of it.
Yeah. And that when we work through and transform these parts, then we're actually living more authentically.
John Clarke: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Fern: Yeah.
John Clarke: Yeah. Sounds like a very needed book.
Jessica Fern: Yeah, I mean, similarly it came from just working with people. Yeah, right. And, and looking at the patterns and um, you know, hearing the voice of the inner critic and realizing that it has a direct relationship to a shame part, and that those two are pretty intense, the voice that beats us up.
And then I see shame as the part that absorbs the inner critic and believes it and deflates, and then that sort of. [00:36:00] Calls on an escaper or multiple escapers to either over function or under function to just like zone out, you know, the inner critic.
John Clarke: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Fern: yeah.
John Clarke: Well, and, and for a lot of people, the, the escaper is the cheating, right?
Is the Yeah. Doing something impulsive. Yeah. Um, which is oftentimes like, uh, a way of saying like, I, I don't know how to actually heal myself or heal my relationship. Right? Yeah. Or how to end a relationship. So I'm gonna make you do it. Whatever.
Jessica Fern: Yeah, that's a great point. I'll make you do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I've seen, um, people that cheat when we explore it from a parts lens. There's an exile part that's younger. But more adolescent usually who doesn't even know the partner that they're with, you know, like doesn't really have a relationship to the partner, like, you know, whereas there's usually a few kind of partner, like parts that are very upset that they cause so much harm in [00:37:00] the relationship
John Clarke: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Fern: and want to repair with their partner. And the part that actually did those actions is like, yeah. In this sort of independence mode and disconnected from a lot of the system. Yeah. Yep.
John Clarke: Yeah, it makes sense.
Jessica Fern: Yeah. Or rebelling, like agreeing to things that you didn't actually want, that don't actually work for you.
John Clarke: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Fern: Yeah. I mean, unfortunately that happens even in non-monogamy, you think, yeah, wow. Here's this a relationship structure that shouldn't even have cheating, and they're still cheating and non-monogamy.
John Clarke: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, there, there's a lot of that. There's a lot of like, uh, self abandoning or, or bypassing in order to try to keep my partner or keep them happy.
Right. Or keep them from leaving or whatever it is.
Jessica Fern: Right, exactly. So like over caretaking or, you know, contorting ourselves to be the partner that we think we're supposed to [00:38:00] be.
John Clarke: Yep.
Jessica Fern: Mm-hmm.
John Clarke: yeah.
Yeah. I mean it. Primarily my work is as a trauma therapist. So that's, that's where my head goes is at what point was it useful or imperative that you learned to do that right.
And bypass your needs or become whatever your, uh, alcoholic mother needed at the time, or what, whatever it was, or your suicidal father. Um, that, that was probably really important at some point to contort in that way. And, oh, yeah, you're still doing it and you're, you know, 35 or whatever.
Jessica Fern: Yeah. Right. I think of it as like, um, a lot of these parts are like foods that have expired.
Like at one point, you know, food before its expiration date. Mm. It nourishes us. It's helping us. We need it. And then these parts, you know, as we age, they have an expiration date on them that like, oh, now you're not. Helpful, you're actually harmful to ingest food [00:39:00] that has expired.
John Clarke: Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
Yeah, I mean, I, I think about these moments all the time. Um, you know, as, as a parent, you know, I've got two little kids, um, and you know, those, those moments where I just think like, gosh, our, our kids are so dependent on us. Like they have to do whatever it takes to keep this connection. So for instance, like.
Uh, not if, but when I have like a misstep as a parent or like lose my temper and then apologize to my daughter. It's like, there, there was one time this happened where I could tell she kind of felt like she should forgive me even if she's not ready yet. Right. Because it's like, I, I, you know, I, I am one of her primary connections, so it would be like important to do that.
So I, I try to be as thoughtful as I can about that and those, those moments of like. You don't have to forgive me or at all, or if you're not ready yet. And also, um, but you know, those moments where we, we just have to do whatever it takes to [00:40:00] maintain connection, you know, especially, um, with our caregivers.
Jessica Fern: Yeah. My, we just had a similar conversation in my house this past week where my son was going into his second year of soccer. And he really liked it the first year and he's been complaining about it and just not wanting to do it. And finally he revealed like he was doing it to make his dad happy. 'cause his dad loves soccer so much.
And we were like, oh wow. Like we didn't realize this was happening, you know? 'cause his dad wasn't pushing him and forcing him, and yet just his dad being so enthusiastic about it. Right. Our son's learning. Oh, look at how jazz, you know? Yeah. Amped up dad is get more, right? Yeah. Right. And so the conversation we had, I said, you know, you are a child and so there's many ways you're gonna be very similar to us, but there's also gonna to be a lot of [00:41:00] ways you're totally different than us and we love you just as much for those differences and
John Clarke: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Fern: Yeah. Never want you to say yes, just to make us happy.
John Clarke: Yep. Yeah.
Jessica Fern: Yeah,
John Clarke: That's a perfect example. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. Um, I, I find that like, in our heads, we are neutral and we know, like, you know, a, a goal is to have less of an agenda with our children and impose our stuff onto them. And yet we, we do it.
You know, I am my daughter, right? Uh, my five-year-old, she learned to swim this summer, you know, and we had been working on it for like a few years, but, um. Really just like swim lessons that didn't work or schools that didn't really progress them or whatever. And then finally this summer, like it clicked and she swam.
And I could see that part, part of it was like she had the right instructor who actually knew how to teach her and get her comfortable and develop her own interest in the water that came from her. And that's what made it different. Yes. And then also, um, you know, I have, as a guy who grew up in the mountains.
But has [00:42:00] been in California a long time. Like I have a love for the ocean and for surfing. And so, um, the, I have parts that really want her to fall in love with the ocean the way that I'm totally, because I think like what a gift, you know, to, to have that in your life as a little girl growing up in California.
And so, um, you know, I, I've noticed that we went to the beach, uh, last weekend and I, at first, like you, you know, you're towing that line between. Helping your child be courageous and like, you should be mindful of the ocean, but also you can interact with it and I'll keep you safe and also listen to yourself and like Right.
You know, at first she was like crying and screaming and didn't wanna do it. Right. And then slowly, um, when I eased up a little bit from my agenda of like, I want you to get comfortable with the ocean. Like, I want you to love the ocean.
Mm-hmm.
i only love the ocean 'cause I do, um, it's like. Almost self-led.
Not really. It's a form of an agenda. It's a self-like, part, like
Jessica Fern: Totally,
John Clarke: I know what's best for you. I know this thing would help me, right? 'cause it helped me. Like, that's clearly mine. But, um, the [00:43:00] more I let let off some of that agenda, the more she just got curious about the ocean. Um, and then started having good experiences with it over the weekend.
And I could talk to her more about like. How to stay safe with it. Here's a couple things to remember. Like, you never turn your back on the waves and that's what, that's how you can see them coming and move if you need to. Mm. So it ended up being like a good experience and she ended up loving it, you know, kind of on her own, but I had to notice that pull in me to like really make it happen.
Right. Totally. Yeah.
Jessica Fern: Yes.
John Clarke: Always learning.
Jessica Fern: Always, always learning. Right. And what you're getting to is like. The subtlety of how these things even show up. Yeah. So subtle, right? Like this isn't necessarily a traumatic event or abusive parenting, right? Like this is like Right. Actually a conscious parent, and yet it still happens, right?
John Clarke: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's subtle, right? And again, with kids, it's like the difference between like we don't want to [00:44:00] teach our kids to be afraid necessarily. Yeah. But also not to bypass their intuition. Right. It's the whole thing with like making kids hug people or even hug like relatives, like just do it, you know?
And now in this like era of, of parenting that, um, I seem to be in, it's like. Really giving them that permission of like, yeah, to choose to do it or not do it. Which is so different than how it was for me as like a little boy.
Jessica Fern: Same. I know my grandma would like lick her lips. Before it was like this tongue that had a map in it almost.
It had all these like cracks. She would lick her lips and come in for a kiss and it was like, uh,
John Clarke: yeah, yeah,
Jessica Fern: yeah, yeah.
John Clarke: But to be a good granddaughter, you had to like do it, you know?
Jessica Fern: Yes, exactly right. I had to do it. There wasn't an option. Yeah. And yeah, we've always given my son, I like give him the options though.
I'm like, you can do a hug or a fist bump or a wave. But we always acknowledge people.
John Clarke: That's important. [00:45:00] Yeah.
Jessica Fern: Right. That that's what's important. You know, like, so however you wanna acknowledge people with your body, you know, from Yeah. No touch to touch.
John Clarke: Yeah. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. Teaching consent, which again, was not a thing for me growing up.
Um, right. And now I'm glad that it's a thing, you know?
Jessica Fern: Um, yeah. But I find then people do the other end where it becomes too permissive that you're like, not teaching your kids like, no, you, we need to look people in the eyes. Like, what, what that means to acknowledge people when we say hello and goodbye versus, you know, oh, you don't have to hug, so you don't even have to do anything.
John Clarke: Yeah, right. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, um, this kind of like gentle parenting era, quote unquote, hasn't been on long enough to be studied. So we don't, we don't really know what kind of adults that they'll become, but, uh, we'll, we'll see, we'll see. We're always like, calibrating, right? But, you know, again, like this thing that I was think of with my daughter, it's like [00:46:00] what, what I, what I'm at risk of communicating is like, um, your.
Feelings about the ocean don't matter. Right? Or your fear is invalid or whatever. Which she internalizes that and later is in a relationship two decades from now or whatever, going, oh my needs don't matter. My fear doesn't matter. Or I need to do non-monogamy. 'cause my partner wants to, even though I'm so clear that I don't want to or whatever, right?
So like a kid learning as early as possible to listen to that inner voice, that inner self, you know, is like so crucial. Um. Even the little thing that we'll do, like she makes a lot of art and she's like, what do you think? Do you like it? You know? And so we try to bring that back to her of like, do you like it?
How do you know? What do you think about, what do you feel about it? Right? Because so much of it is starts to become external, right? Like, do you think this is pretty? And if Daddy does great, like I'm gonna do it like this, or I'm gonna color in the lines more. And if not, it's like, oh, daddy didn't like it, so, right.
All those moments, you know?
Jessica Fern: Right. And you've probably experienced this too, if you work with like inner critic [00:47:00] parts.
John Clarke: Yeah.
Jessica Fern: They usually have origins at a very young age.
John Clarke: Of course.
Jessica Fern: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
John Clarke: Yep. Yeah. Deep wounding and not, not good enough parts. And, um, yeah. You know, ironically are not my, my most driven clients out here who come to the Bay Area to be like special unicorns in tech and startups.
Like they have often the deepest wounding around their worthless parts. Right. And so, right. Trying to make it and be someone, be, be shiny. Yeah.
Jessica Fern: Yeah. And the shame triangle that in that system would be these overachieving or over functioning of papers.
John Clarke: Yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica Fern: To go for status and
John Clarke: Right.
Jessica Fern: Wealth and achievement in order to not feel shame and not have the inner critic pipe up.
John Clarke: Yep. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting 'cause when you're, when I'm working with it, I can just see it, I can just see that that polarity like. Clear as day, you know? Yeah. When I'm working with a client. But it can take a while to really tap into like, how do [00:48:00] you know when you're operating from your core wounding?
You know, and that's just a question I put out there to clients often. Or I had this client today who had a really difficult interaction with some coworkers who, someone who basically said like, I think you didn't do a great job with this thing. And it just took her right back to being, you know, 12 years old in the kitchen and mom going.
You didn't apply yourself, you know, you didn't do good. Right. So it's like, again, there's the shame of like, you're calling me bad. Right. And my badness is being witnessed in, in a group of seven people that I need love and connection with, you know? Yeah. So it feels very threatening, literally life threatening, right?
Jessica Fern: Yeah, it is. I mean, that's, shame is connected to life threat.
John Clarke: Yeah.
Jessica Fern: Because social threat is actually life threatening.
John Clarke: Yep.
Jessica Fern: When we're little.
John Clarke: A hundred percent.
Jessica Fern: Yeah.
John Clarke: Um, well, Jessica, we're, we'll have to do a part two then when the book about shame comes out. 'cause it's, yes, it's a hot topic. Topic around here.
So [00:49:00] let me know when that's out. I'd love to have you back on.
Jessica Fern: Awesome. Thank you.
John Clarke: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and then, yeah, for folks listening, how can they find out more about you and get ahold of your books and, um, learn more about? Yeah.
Jessica Fern: My website is jessica fern.com so that's sort of where you'll learn about me, see where my books are, um, and my books are available, and all the places that you can get books online.
Yeah.
John Clarke: Perfect. Love it. We'll put links to that in the, um, show notes. And, um, yeah, thank you again for being here and keep in touch until, until next time.
Jessica Fern: Yes. Thank you.
John Clarke: All right. Thanks again, Jessica.
Thanks for listening to another episode of Going Inside. If you enjoyed this episode, please like and subscribe wherever you're listening or watching, and share your favorite episode with a friend. You can follow me on Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok at johnclarketherapy and apply to work with me one-on-one at johnclarketherapy.com.
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