IFS Therapy: Parts Work, Panic & Protectors
In this episode, John Clarke answers therapists’ questions about applying Internal Family Systems in real clinical situations. Topics include working with Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID), perfectionistic protector parts, and fear-based panic responses. John also shares a simple lens that can change how therapists understand client behavior.
3 Key Takeaways
A simple framework that can change how you interpret what clients say in session.
Why therapy stalls and how slowing down with protector parts changes the work.
The question that helps high-functioning clients reconnect with their true Self.
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Transcript
John Clarke: [00:00:00] If you want the ultimate hack as a therapist, everything that comes outta your client's mouth, frame it through the lens of how does what they're saying have to do with them trying to get more love and connection, or avoid losing love and connection.
Going Inside is a podcast on a mission to help people heal from trauma and reconnect with their authentic self. Join me trauma therapist John Clarke for guest interviews, real life therapy sessions, and soothing guided meditations. Whether you're navigating your own trauma, helping others heal from trauma, or simply yearning for a deeper understanding of yourself, going inside is your companion on the path to healing and self-discovery.
Download free guided meditations and apply to work with me one-on-one at johnclarketherapy.com. Thanks for being here. Let's dive in.
Hey everyone. Welcome back. My name is John Clarke. I'm a licensed trauma therapist out here in San Francisco. I'm also a group practice owner of a trauma teaching practice called calmagaincounseling.com [00:01:00] and I'm the host of going inside, um, healing trauma from the inside out. We've been doing this for like a hundred episodes, which is pretty crazy.
And um, after a handful of years in the field and realizing. Most clients had trauma, and yet most therapists, myself included, had no idea how to actually treat it. So I developed, um, this trauma specialty little over 10 years ago. Got trained in EMDR in 2015 and never looked back in terms of my commitment and curiosity toward all things trauma and trauma healing.
So that's kind of who I am in. And why we're here. And, um, every now and then I'll do these, uh, weekly. Uh, I'll do these calls, these going inside live calls where I'm answering your questions. So, uh, some are pre, uh, submitted questions, like the first one I'm gonna answer here. And, uh, and then the rest will be from you live.
So if you have a question, go ahead and, [00:02:00] um, submit it and I will answer them one by one until, until there's no more. So, um, okay. First question. That was pre. Uh, submitted is from Susie. The question is how to do parts work in IFS to stabilize DID, um, with a high frequency of involuntary parts, blending three-year-old part blending while driving on main roads.
Hmm. Okay. Um, so I'll say, I'll say this. First of all, um, I have a real. While I have a real interest in DID and have worked with clients with DID, it's not a primary special to me, specialty to me, and yet, um, I do have an interest in it. This is something that my mentor treats extensively and has for decades.
Um, what I would say is you're [00:03:00] really, if you're approaching it through an IFS lens, um, there's some things that are similar. In terms of how you would, you know, approach this case regardless through an IFS lens, you want to get to know the parts that are here. In the case of DID, you want to get to know, um, really the most pissed off protectors that are ready and willing to get to know you.
Um, oftentimes right when working with their protective system, you're so in DID, you're just gonna have. A more extreme degree of polarization and a completely eclipsed self or access to self-energy is completely absent, completely eclipsed, right? So their sense of, you know, uh, when self is here or not here is basically non-existent parts, hijack them and effectively take over and are completely driving the bus.
And, uh, until further notice, until another part is online. [00:04:00] In the case of DID, um, 10 times out of 10 you have, uh, the severe childhood trauma among the most severe childhood trauma imaginable. I tend to find that the degree and the content is, uh, the most extreme I've ever heard. So, I mean, I guess one question would be, so this 3-year-old part blends while driving on main roads.
Terrifying. Right? I, I, I wonder, first of all, just from a pragmatic standpoint, like whether she should be driving. So I might wanna think about that. Um, so I guess if the part is blending or this alter is taking over to use more classic DID terms, um, I would wanna know. Why I would get curious about why this is happening, why this altar feels a need to take the wheel literally and figuratively when driving on main roads [00:05:00] and get to know that.
So basically just like with IFS, you know, you're doing, um, mediation work. IFS is by and large part mediation work, right? So you have a whole team of alters, you know, some of which may or may not have awareness of one another. And they all think that they have the right way of doing things, and then you might have one really pissed off kind of boss, right?
Um, and no access to self. So when you're doing this work and working with these alters, you are doing direct access until further notice, until self is online. You're doing direct access and you're working directly with parts as a primary way of working, right? Not as like a, a backup. So everything is direct access.
So you might even ask to speak directly to this three-year-old alter or this 3-year-old part and see if you can understand why this one is taking the [00:06:00] wheel. Why this one is blending while driving on main roads. If there are safety concerns, you might gently express those safety concerns like you would to a three-year-old.
Why this, um, could be dangerous. What could happen if we have a three-year-old driving? At all. Right? So that's how I'd approach it. I hope that helps. I'd love to hear a little bit more about the case, the history, things like that, so I could possibly help more. But for now, um, hope that gives you something to, to think about.
As therapists, we hold space for so many. But who's holding space for us? If you're craving deeper healing and more powerful tools for your clients, I wanna invite you to my free webinar on Internal Family Systems Therapy. IFS changed my life and the way I practice. It helped me move through burnout, reconnect with my authentic self, and show up more fully for my clients and for myself.
In this webinar, I'm gonna walk you through what IFS is and why it works. A simple tool that you can use right away [00:07:00] and how to bring this work into your practice, even if you're just beginning. This is for therapists ready to go deeper. Join us now with the link in the description.
Okay. Getting into our live questions here from writer Kay, who's been here before. Uh, thanks for being here, writer kay. Um, it says, hi, John. Thanks so much for these live q and as. You're welcome. Here's my question with a high functioning slash perfectionist client. After six sessions when I started fleshing out parts, starting with the anxious part, which seemed to be better.
Accessible. I felt resistance from the client to actually connect with the part. Uh, I replaced resistance with hesitance. Um, like, uh, she was imagining it as a toddler trying to shut it up. And I encouraged, um, when I encouraged her curiosity as to if there is a part feeling judgmental. She was sort of defensive that she was compassionate toward all her parts.
I did not see any compassion for her from her. [00:08:00] Compassion through from her toward her anxious part that runs her body and everyday life. Okay. Let me point out a couple interesting things here that hopefully will help get this on the right track. Um, you're saying here you didn't see any compassion, you know, from her toward her anxious parts, but she said she was compassionate toward all her parts, right?
So something happened there where you offended her. So some sort of repair needs to happen there. It, you know, in a way it's like if I ask a client how you're feeling and they say calm, and they don't look calm, it doesn't really matter, right? Because their subjective reality is that they feel calm and, um, I am not there to argue with their subjective reality and vice versa.
So, um. If they say they're feeling compassion, you know, I would, I would [00:09:00] go with that. I would honor that. Now, if you start doing more parts work and the work keeps stalling or snagging, right, maybe there truly isn't enough compassion in there, or she has some access to self, but not a lot. And so the work keeps kind of stalling out, right?
And, and things get tripped up here. So, um. Basically, you just really want to go slow here because you're, you're trying to progress the work and you're trying to progress the insight work, and you're getting effectively protector, backlash. So anytime you're getting protector backlash, you just want to slow down and back up.
Right. At some point, I unintentionally bypass some protectors. Right. And again, not to pick on you, but using words like resistance and defensive. I just kind of remove these from my vocabulary. If we're doing IFS [00:10:00] resistant defensive, these are in a way like Ian terms, like an ego defense, clients being resistant, meaning they're kind of in the way of something I'm trying to do here.
Whereas the essence of IFS is truly being with all of this, being with the parts, being with the parts that are hesitant to let go of being with the parts that are hesitant to let you help. And that maybe don't trust you. That is to say that again, we, you are a person in the room. So when the work is like stalling out like this or you're hitting some snags, the first question to ask yourself is, how do I feel toward these parts?
How do I feel toward the part that is not unblending right, or that's getting scared or that's taking over? 'cause a lot of times that has everything to do with our stuckness, right? And if I'm really honest, and I check in and I go inside and go, okay, well, I have a part that's really annoyed or a part that's [00:11:00] like, well, you know, this anxious part's kind of like in the way, or she's being resistant, therefore not letting me do my thing and be a good therapist.
So then I fear I'm not a good therapist and she'll leave and then I won't have any money. And then I'll fail my family. And then I'll be homeless. And then, and then, and then, and then, right. So then I go, well, can I unblend a bit and just get really curious about her parts, right? Get really curious about what's happening here.
Parts, beget parts, curiosity begets curiosity, right? So if I'm truly curious about what's happening here without the energy of like also trying to change it or rearrange shit, you know, then her system softens right. And more compassion and curiosity is inside of her system. It's, it's contagious. It's truly contagious.
That's the the cool part about this, right? So sometimes all I do quote unquote, all [00:12:00] I do in quotations is just hold myself energy. All I do is sit back and let the client work a bit. All I do is sit back and let them, um, go from being blended to less blended, and I'm just in ance with them. I'm attuned to them.
I'm tracking their system. I'm doing really basic stuff, really basic counseling skills. Accurate. Reflection, validation, just warmth, empathy. And if and when there's a moment where some depth can occur, then you know, I might go with that. And we might be off to the races. We might do some parts work. Right.
So a party of you that really wants to smoke weed tonight and there's a party of you that's like, dude, you said you weren't gonna do this anymore. Yeah. Whi which one are you noticing right now? Right? You wanna work, do you wanna work with those parts A little bit. Or you just want to really update me on what's going on, and you, you really wanna tell me more about the stuckness with the weed?[00:13:00]
Either one's fine, right? I don't need you to stop smoking weed today or tomorrow, ever again. My hope and in my heart, I hope you get where you're going in life, but clients don't need to stop or deepen or relax or whatever for, for me. When we think about positionality, which is a fun word, we were talking about that today in pathways to self, um, really think about your positionality with regard to your clients and their progress, or their stuckness or their despair or their whatever.
What's it like for you when they're doing well? Or worse, if we just go up and down and up and down and up and down with them. It's just chaotic, right? Your partner goes, how was your day, honey? He goes, it was great. All my clients are in a good place and the next week they go, how was your, how was your day, honey?
And you go, it was horrible. You know, clients like client relapsed and another one's having panic attacks, and another one's just like in their grief again. And [00:14:00] just like not setting boundaries. So it's just a hard day.
Sounded familiar, right? We're all guilty of this. If, if we are always, um, when we're too attached to the work and too attached to our clients and taking responsibility for their parts and their lives, then um, it feels chaotic. We're on that roller coaster with them, right? This is what a boundary is.
People get boundaries wrong. It's really annoying. A boundary isn't just like saying no to your friends on a Friday night or saying no to your mom. This is a this, this is a boundary. This is an internal boundary of right. Being in my separateness, yet having lots of compassion for that person, but not taking on their shit as my own
strong feelings about this. But you know what? It's my show, so I'm allowed to,[00:15:00]
yep. My sassy part. Um, okay. Writer case says, thank you. It makes sense. I felt that too during session and when she used compassion, then I shifted toward clarity from the eight Cs, asking if that resonated with her. Yeah. I don't, I don't, I mean, I'm, it sounds like you were trying to like, clarify and get to the bottom of it with her.
But again, like, um, I, I, it sounds like, uh, we don't wanna like argue with the client, right? Even if I don't fully. Sense that there's like lots of compassion if she's like, I'm compassionate, you know, it's like, well maybe it's like clarity. Um, I, I just, I wouldn't split hairs over this. 'cause that dynamic can feel, that can evoke her defenses.
Right. Because it feels like I'm not getting it right. And as clients, they really wanna get it right. They actually wanna be a good client. They want you to think like this is a good client and they're doing it right. Right. So sometimes a big cap compassionate. Okay, good. Keep going with that. Imagine if you're like their middle school teacher, right?
Like they want your approval. [00:16:00] They do, and you have tremendous power. So we have to be aware of that relational dynamic, um, writer Kay says I should add, she has a BA in psychology and works as an admin in a hypnotherapy clinic. So I sometimes I rely on her qualifications and knowledge. Maybe like she knows it all or knows all.
Yeah. I mean, gosh, to be honest, I could be working with. Uh, an IFS therapist who's been doing it for 30 years, and I'm still going to treat it the same damn way. I, I really am, right. Working with therapists, um, working with whomever, people that know a lot, doctors, I just treat it all the same way. Right?
There's, there's a little one inside that really needs her help, you know? No matter how much she knows about psychology or how much she knows about IFS, right? Knowing is not connection. Knowing is not [00:17:00] love. You can know a lot, right? We can know a lot about IFS conceptually about the model, but can you embody the model and in the room can you connect with your own heart and find love and self energy for.
The client and their stuckness or their helplessness, or their relapsing or their cutting or their deceit as they're lying to your face about all of it or about the binging or the purging. So yeah,
as my friend says, and that's my TED talk for the day. He will say that in like normal conversation, and it's always funny when he goes on a rant. And so I, I like to say that too. I go on lots of, um, Ted talks of my own, not real TED Talks. No one's invited me yet. This is my, this is my, this is my TED [00:18:00] talk on my small YouTube channel.
That'll show 'em, that'll show the bullies from high school. Um, writer case. As well said. Thank you. I'm happy I brought it up. Yeah. Thank you for bringing this up. Again, these, these dynamics are so, um, they're subtle, but Right. We're tending to, we're tending to the process of psychotherapy, right? What's happening in the here and now?
What's happening between the two of us? What am I missing? In our intersubjectivity, we're always missing something. Always. There's what the client's experiencing, there's what I'm experiencing. There's the relationship itself that is this amorphous thing between us. Another reason to have consulting, right?
So in pathways to self, we talk about these cases, people bring cases every week. Um, you can also bring tapes of your clients. You know, that'd be another amazing way for me to help with, uh, some of these techniques and some of this interpersonal process. [00:19:00] So, yeah, always. Um, an option to join the program.
Give it a try. johnclarketherapy.com/pathways this morning. We also, you know, we started with a really nice long meditation, like a somatic IFS meditation. We tend to do that every week as well, so that's just a really good way to resource and kind of fill your own cup, um, as you're, you know, heading into the rest of your week.
Yeah. Um, years ago, Irvin Yalom, the psychotherapist, he, uh, he wrote a book about, it's, I think every day gets a little closer, is what it's called, or something like that. And every, after every session, he had the client write down what happened in session. And then he wrote down what happened in session.
Sure enough, it was oftentimes different, right? The client would write, oh, that was an amazing session. You were so warm and attuned. And then he would write, I was distracted today. I was, in my head, I was thinking about this. You know, my wife's medical appointment coming [00:20:00] up or whatever, and then vice versa, you know, she would write, um, while he was distracted and, you know, didn't seem to care and he was like, I was amazing.
You know, I was attuned and warm and like on it. So my a game today. So we're always in that inner subjectivity, right? I had a rupture some time ago with a client who just felt like, you really didn't get me, and you were like judging me. I didn't feel that any part of me was judging her, but it doesn't matter.
She had the experience of I was not getting her and I was judging her. Tell me more about that. Right? Let's work through that. What was it like to feel judged by me? You know? So attachment, it's about rupture and repair. So the rupture happened and then it's my job to lean into and, uh, you know, um, help with the repair, right?
That's part of what makes a therapeutic relationship different is we can. Have the repair. We offer the repair and we know how to do it. Yeah. [00:21:00] Okay. That was it for the live questions. If there's any more, feel free to submit 'em quickly while I'm here. Otherwise, almost lunchtime for me. Um, just a quick announcement.
We will be back in two weeks for this, again on the 17th. Same time and place. So that's March 17th at 12 Pacific, three Eastern. Yeah. Okay. I'll do one more here. Um, this is another live question. Can you chat a bit about how to approach my own fear of flying with IFS? Should I start with the parts that say I can't, I won't, I'm too afraid, et cetera?
Interestingly, this just came up in group and uh, and, and in Pathways. And what I did was also say, yes, you can approach it from a parts perspective. There's a part that's afraid to get on the plane. There's a part that's like. Don't get on the plane. Right? This could be bad Mo. For most people in their fear of flying, their fear is [00:22:00] actually not of like the plane crashing or dying or whatever.
That might be some of it, but it's not the main thing keeping you from getting on the plane or feeling panicky on the plane. For most people, their fear is of fear itself. They fear having a panic attack on the plane. So what happens is. We are on a plane and we have some panicky sensations, an alarm reaction, right?
If feel dizzy, lightheaded, palms are sweaty, right heart is racing, and, um, you, that is followed by an interpretation or really a misinterpretation. Of, um, those sensations, right? I'm having a panic attack, I'm gonna lose control, I'm going crazy, et cetera. And then we do one of three things. Avoid escape, distract.
These are our avoidance behaviors. Avoid escape, distract. And then we're just in that cycle of hypervigilance and avoidance. And we avoid it. And we avoid and avoid, right, or we numb [00:23:00] out, or we can only do it if I take a Xanax and have, you know, two glasses of wine or whatever. So that I, I would recommend, you know, you look into interoceptive exposure for this.
I don't tend to treat phobias, you know, in panic attacks with IFS personally. That's just my thing. You know, years ago, a decade ago, I used to work with a purist CBT therapist. So I did a lot of exposure work and I still use those tools, you know, to treat specific stuff like this. So in interoceptive exposure, you basically, um, inoculate yourself to your own symptoms by bringing on the sensations.
So like hyperventilating for 30 seconds and bringing on that sensation, and then just letting it settle and then doing it again and letting it settle. And the more you do that, the more you train your brain, your nervous system to go to decouple, you know, these sensations from full panic attack or from the signal that like, this is dangerous.
[00:24:00] Yeah. Hope that helps. Okay, one more follow up from writer. Kay. And then I'm outta here. Um, uh, they say, can you please add, how would you help the client strengthen core self-leadership, specifically client who sees perfectionism and over-functioning already as self-leadership? Well, uh, again, they have to.
Okay, here. Here's how you do it. Here's how, and I work with a lot of clients like this. It's, it's probably my main avatar of a client. I would ask the client, what is your essence? And they'll look at you like you're insane. What is your essence? Right? What is your soul? What is the quality of your soul?
What are the attributes of your soul? Who you are, your personhood? Were you born this way as perfectionistic and over-functioning and working 80 hours a week? Is that your natural state or is it something else? [00:25:00] Right. What is your essence? So that's how I kind of bridge this conversation about it. And then really it's asking the parts.
What do they fear would happen if they were less perfectionistic? If you were less functioning, if you worked 60 hours instead of 80? Right? Most of the time, you know, it's like the fear is if we do this healing and I unlin, I unburden these parts and all this good stuff and I'm just this ball of light floating around, I'm gonna fall behind.
I'm not gonna work as hard, I'm gonna lose my edge, quote unquote, which never happens. If anything, you have more of an edge 'cause you're more balanced and you have more harmony inside and more actual self-leadership and external leadership. But there's usually just a lot of fears in there around not being enough.
If you want the ultimate hack as a therapist, everything that comes outta your client's mouth, frame it through the lens of how does what they're saying have to do with them trying to get [00:26:00] more love and connection, or avoid losing love and connection. Everything, everything that comes outta their mouth, everything that comes outta your own mouth for that matter.
Whoops. Therapists are people too. Whoops. What a bummer.
Yeah, that's probably good for now. Lots of nuggets for you guys. I hope it's helpful. Um, if it's helpful. Great. If you're enjoying the show, let me know. You know, like, subscribe, leave comments here, share the show with a friend or two. That really helps me. We have to just grow. Everything's organic, so the more you can help me grow it organically, the, the, the better.
That way I can keep doing this. So I. I hope this was helpful. Again, I'll be back in two weeks on the 17th. Thanks again for being here. Check out, um, uh, the other episodes on the show. You can always go back and listen to old ones. You can listen to [00:27:00] meditations and, uh, live demos. Me talking over live demos and dissecting my own demos with real IFS, uh, sessions and, uh, all sorts of fun.
Stuff in there for you all. So bit of a variety show if I do say so myself, which is kind of the guy, the kind of guy I am. Um, alright, I hope that was helpful and um, I'll see you all in the next one. Take care. Bye bye.
Thanks for listening to another episode of Going Inside. If you enjoyed this episode, please like and subscribe wherever you're listening or watching, and share your favorite episode with a friend. You can follow me on Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok at johnclarketherapy and apply to work with me one-on-one at johnclarketherapy.com.
See you next time.