Cece Sykes on IFS, Addiction & The Power of Choice
In this episode of Going Inside, John Clarke sits down with the legendary Cece Sykes, IFS trainer, therapist, and pioneer in the field of addiction recovery, for a rich, open-ended conversation about the complex dance between trauma, addictive processes, and the healing power of choice.
Together, they break down a real client demo, the challenges therapists face when healing feels urgent, and how the IFS model bridges the gap between trauma treatment and addiction recovery.
3 Key Takeaways
What if your inner critic isn’t you — but your parent’s energy?
When speed becomes a symptom, not a solution.
The 9th “C” of Self you’ve never heard of (but really need).
👤 Guest: Cece Sykes
Cece Sykes, LCSW, has over 40 years of clinical experience treating trauma and addiction. She is a senior lead trainer for the Internal Family Systems (IFS) Institute, and has trained therapists all over the world on how to use IFS to work with addictive processes and legacy burdens.
📧 Contact: cecesykes427@gmail.com
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Transcript:
[00:00:00]
Cece Sykes: I'd say, do you, so, so you have a part right now, you're with a part that looks or sounds a lot like your parent, your father or your mother.
John Clarke: Mm-hmm.
Cece Sykes: And um, and yet they're not here. So do you think it's possible, can we check with this part? Do you think it's absorbed some of their energy?
John Clarke: Going Inside is a podcast on a mission to help people heal from trauma and reconnect with their authentic self. Join me trauma therapist John Clarke for guest interviews, real life therapy sessions, and soothing guided meditations. Whether you're navigating your own trauma, helping others heal from trauma, or simply yearning for a deeper understanding of yourself, going inside is your companion on the path to healing and self-discovery.
Download free guided meditations and apply to work with me one-on-one at johnclarketherapy.com. Thanks for being here. Let's dive in.
Cece Sykes has over 40 years of clinical experience treating recovery from trauma and addiction. A consultant, author, and [00:01:00] senior trainer. She has been educating therapists around the world on how to apply the IFS therapy model to addictive processes. Um, sees, thanks for coming back on the show. Um, how have you been?
What's going on in your world and in your work?
Cece Sykes: Uh, well, thanks so much for having me back on, John. It's, uh, I love that. I, I love the opportunity to talk to you and, and to talk to whoever's listening. Awesome. Um, yeah, you know, life is good. Everything in my, the external world, I live in Chicago, Chicago, there's a lot going on in our world, all of our worlds that's different and unprecedented and difficult.
Yeah. Uh, so there's that. Um, and that's just sort of, uh, ongoing in my beloved home of Chicago. Um, and across the country, of course.
John Clarke: Yeah.
Cece Sykes: And, uh, for, you know, uh, and at the same time in, in my IFS world, um, it's, I'm having some wonderful experiences talking with people about [00:02:00] how IFS can help with addictive processes, some new opportunities for that to get out there.
So in my IFS world has been exciting and fun, and I love talking to people about. Some of this and other things too, but that's been good lately.
John Clarke: Yeah. Yeah. Well that's great. Yeah, I, so we had talked a little before hitting record and one idea was, I'm gonna show you a clip of an IFS demo. I did. So a real session and, um, some, uh, protector response is coming up right off the bat.
So I want to get your take on that. Um, but I also was gonna ask you, maybe we can just see if we have time for this is just like. When life feels like too much, like a lot of my clients are just feeling like the world is too much. Looking at my phone is too much. And so our firefighters are just busier than ever in my experience, and more active than ever.
Oh, yes. Yeah,
Cece Sykes: it's really true.
John Clarke: And therapists too, right? When it's too much or [00:03:00] too much hearing about our clients. Talk about the thing that is a lot for us too.
Cece Sykes: Yeah, right. I mean, we're not even hardly a page ahead. Yeah, it started with the pandemic probably a little bit, uh, although some certain things before that and it's, we have, we are not a page ahead on all of this.
John Clarke: Yeah. I find sometimes clients wanna know if their shock is appropriate or proportional. Right. Um, you know, there's some of that too, of just like wanting to know what your therapist thinks or if your therapist thinks this is. Just truly crazy or truly as shocking as they feel it is, or, or whatever.
Cece Sykes: Well, you know, it's, it's an interesting question, John, because it come last, that question of how much do we share about our personal viewpoint with our clients?
Into what, into what end?
John Clarke: Yeah.
Cece Sykes: So, you know, I'm at the, you know, far end of having been in this, you know, therapy world since the seventies. [00:04:00] So I have a long perspective and I have no problem telling people that I've been a psychotherapist for many, many, many decades through many, many different parts of world.
And this is unprecedented. So you get to have ex, you get to have feelings that are deeply charged.
John Clarke: Yeah.
Cece Sykes: And that I feel, I feel grief for people. Um, my, my own daughters, for instance, but I mean, who are in their late thirties. But for people who've not experienced a world other than this. Yeah. Uh, with, uh, the external world being so, um, our, our particular government in particular being in a very unusual place.
John Clarke: Mm-hmm.
Cece Sykes: So I think acknowledging that this is not the norm in is always helpful.
John Clarke: Yes. Yes.
Cece Sykes: To validate someone's perception of reality. You know, whether it's about is my family. Uh, or whether it's about our larger [00:05:00] systems.
John Clarke: Yeah.
Cece Sykes: Is a, it's really helpful for therapists to validate what's normal and what isn't, more or less right.
Within a certain range.
John Clarke: Yes, I've come to understand trauma. If I were to oversimplify it, which I like to do to help then understand all the many nuances of it is, um, something bad is happening and I can't do anything about it. Right. The counter vortex, you know, which is what Peter Levine calls it is something bad is happening and I can do something about it, right?
I find a lot of my clients, they struggle with what to do with all this extra energy, with this anxiety, right? How to mobilize on it. Um. Also, people's heads are just so incredibly overflowing with information and gory images from their phones and seeing every travesty of the world a hundred times a day on their phone, um, that they're in freeze and shut down and they're dissociated and it's all too much.
So they end up kind of [00:06:00] doing nothing about it. You know, I was talking to a client the other day and I said, well, what would it be like to, to pick a cause out of all these many causes that you really care about? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And mobilize on that. Wonder what that would feel like for your body, for your nervous system, for your parts, you know?
Cece Sykes: Yeah. I love what you're suggesting. You're suggest, you know, I wanna, one of the things I've, I've talked about in the, when I teach the models, I like there to be a ninth c to be choice. And as Dick says, that's not really a quality, you know, I said I know, I know. But, um, and I agree with him. But at the same time, this idea of when we have autonomy and when we don't.
And so for people, I might say what it feels like you have no, it feels addictive, right? It feels like I have no choice about what I'm exposed to or how much I turn to my phone, my pad, my screen. And so sometimes I say, what if we just though that polarity. Between the parts that say I should know, and I [00:07:00] ha it's a team I should know.
I should stay abreast of things. I must know. It's important to know. Yes. And my other parts that are just like, I can't do it anymore. And so that sense of overstimulation and then collapse.
John Clarke: That's right.
Cece Sykes: And then underneath that, the exile that feels both powerless and hopeless and is, yeah. And so the idea of bringing choice to that dilemma I think is really great.
In terms of you. Talking with your client, choosing something, but not everything.
John Clarke: Choice is, is everything. It probably deserves its own acronym, um, right. In the IFS world, you'll have to talk to Dick about that. Um, right. Even giving clients choice in therapy is part of how therapy is potentially a corrective emotional experience.
Um, does it feel right to go a little deeper with this topic or with this part? Sure. Or was this feeling in your chest? Does it feel better to just stay right here? Does it feel better to just talk or to talk [00:08:00] about football for a few more minutes? Right. What we were just doing?
Cece Sykes: Yes. Sometimes I, I like to sit, call it the mini pause, or the mini unblend, which is, what is it like, let's pause for a minute.
What is it like for you to talk to me about this? Right? That's right. Right, that's right. So that there's really enormous amount of choice in autonomy. Autonomy, I think is an underappreciated word in terms of what our clients, uh, are seeking and also what we have.
John Clarke: Yeah.
Cece Sykes: We do have, I mean, to, to notice what they have autonomy over and, and not, yeah.
John Clarke: I've, I've developed an accidental specialty around working with clients, had really damaging therapy, but I keep getting these clients in uhhuh. The, the core theme is, it's the antithesis of this. It's, they didn't have choice, they didn't have autonomy. Um, they felt the immense pressure and power of the therapist and they had to just go along with it.
There's also, this is a chip on my shoulder right now, but [00:09:00] um, I saw a post this morning in a group. It's an EMDR group around, oh, I've just come up with this new technique and you can clear, um, 10 targets in five minutes with no dissociation. You know, and all this like pressure of like, wow, accelerated models, rapid models, all this stuff, and it's just like, I just have such a problem with that because I've worked with a lot of clients who have tried those things and then had, have, have had.
Incurred so much damage as a result. Um, but our obsession and even culturally or in North America around efficiency and progress and data and all this stuff, like we want it sooner and faster, and we bring that into the healing space. Um, and I, I just like, I, I have concerns about it, not a and and also just clients trying to be a good client and going, this feels really wrong to go further or to do the e mdr r and say, yes, I'm fine to keep going.
And then they leave that room in a way, worse state than they, [00:10:00] they came because they don't wanna upset their therapist. Right. And they wanna be, they wanna be a good client.
Cece Sykes: Yeah. And I'm, so it's wonderful to hear that, um, they can go to you to, to have a very different experience. Um, but I think the search for a silver bullet, the one answer, the simplified answer is huge.
Is very, again, the way we, we have. So much Marketing. Yeah, marketing in every aspect of social media is accompanied by marketing and um, I heard a neuroscientist, and I'm trying to think who it is right now, I was talking about it, but that are, as much as there's so much we can do, the plasticity of the brain is an important.
Thing to keep in mind when we're doing healing every time we go inside, we're working with that.
John Clarke: Yeah.
Cece Sykes: But at the same time, our brains weren't exactly equipped for the rapidity, the rapid rate that we have and the access that we have to an altered state. We are in an altered state when we're on our phone, [00:11:00] so, uh, that's right.
We aren't exactly equipped for that kind of stimulation. Uh, so it does take a proactive. Takes a proactive stance, um, to deal with it, I think. Yeah.
John Clarke: Well, one of the best things I can hear from a client especially, 'cause 99% of what I do is trauma work. One of the best things I can hear is when a client says no to me.
Says Right. That, that didn't feel right, or I don't want to go there. Or they give me some, some feedback and go that, that, you know, that didn't feel right or whatever. And I just, I, I praise the heck out of them in those, those moments. Right. Especially when they've had those other moments where they've self abandoned.
Right. For, for many reasons. Um, yeah.
Cece Sykes: There's so much self in that. No. Right. It's, you know, if we're, we're not just parts detectors we're also self detectors. And what I hear you saying is that you're kind of seeing that as a place of self, which I would. In general, agree with particularly saying to an authority that doesn't work for me.[00:12:00]
John Clarke: Yeah. Well also, you know, just try segueing it a bit into your world and your work. I think a lot of what I think about around addictive processes is at some point when addictive behaviors are out of control, it doesn't feel like there's a lot of choice in that, right? Like if there's a cocktail on the table, there's not a lot of choice in finishing the whole thing or just having half of it or whatever.
Sure, of course. And sometimes when folks have had, uh, a good degree of. Healing around that, and they've got enough safety in their system and in their nervous system, they have more choice in the face of that. Whether it's, I'm choosing abstinence, I'm choosing not to have it at all or to go to a bar at all, or I'm there and I'm choosing to have half of it or whatever.
Cece Sykes: Yeah. And that's a process. And I think really all of us know what it's like to feel addicted. I, you know, we, we use the term somewhat. I am addicted to that show. I am addicted to my [00:13:00] new sweater, whatever. We say these words very loosely, but we all know what it's like to not be able to get away from something.
Yeah. Or someone.
John Clarke: Yeah.
Cece Sykes: And, and so I like to sort of normalize as you say, like to that low comment, lowest common denominator, right? The keep it simple is, don't we all know what it's like to have something going on with, with ourselves. And want to change it and feel unable to. So, um, I like to just kind of put us all on that same continuum.
Um, and at different points in our life, it may have been much more prominent than others. So to normalize that, and yes, as you're saying that I, so often people cho make a choice not related exactly to their toughest substance or their toughest practice. They're not gonna give up their phone first, but they might, they might make a different choice first, but, um, that's right.
Choice is choice. Choice. If choice equals self, we're, we're, um, it's, you know, that's what we're looking towards.
John Clarke: Yeah. [00:14:00] Well, there, there's still tremendous, um, cultural stigma and shame around, um, folks that are kind of self-identified in recovery. Right. Or there's some culture around that of this person is fundamentally weak or out of control, or can't mm-hmm.
You know, control themselves or whatever that, that, that is, you know? Yeah,
Cece Sykes: absolutely. And this is why, you know, I. Um, at some a, a conference once, and I heard someone say, you know, there's always been this distrust really between traditional psychotherapy world and the recovery world.
John Clarke: Oh yeah.
Cece Sykes: And, and, and the, and the separation.
Right. Go to the community mental health center and the, an anxiety and depression and trauma come in the front door and the side doors for addiction treatment. Many, many residential treatment centers have eating disorder and sexual abuse. That's right. And alcohol. And I get that 'cause of, definitely, there's definitely different dynamics.[00:15:00]
But what I'm kind of looking at is that, uh, is if FS is sort of a bridge because we do talk about behaviors, but we also talk about underlying trauma or attachment wounds. Yeah. So we are sort of a bridge between these two worlds where. You know, addiction can say, we can look across the aisle and say they're too much about behavior change, and they can look across the aisle and say, you've been working with this guy for two years, why don't you, we ask him how much he's drinking.
You know? Right. No. Hundred nothing's changed. So there's so much truth.
in this, uh, on both sides. So I really feel if FS is such a good bridge, um, for bringing those two worlds together, where we must talk about behaviors or practices very explicitly. And at the same time, notice that everything is a protection.
John Clarke: Yeah, that's right. It, it, it's, it's strange and probably also kind of, uh, even stranger from your seat, uh, that on one hand it's like, we know more now about treating, working with addictive processes [00:16:00] than we did before. And also it still feels like we're in like the ice age with it. Um, something that IFS offers around, um, when there's an, an active addictive process, or an extreme addictive process mm-hmm.
Um, that means there's a, there's a lot of polarization in one system, oftentimes. Where does that polarization come from? From trauma, from some traumatic or overwhelming life experiences. So like treating both and having them hand in hand. Or there's places like, um, the Meadows, I don't know if you about know about The Meadows.
Of course. Yes.
Cece Sykes: Um, yeah. I've trained, I, I taught, I taught level one to a good from some of the staff at The Meadows. Yeah. Okay. We worked with them on a training. Yeah, go ahead.
John Clarke: Yeah. Well, no, I mean, I, I just, I I remember learning about their program or trying to find a program here for a client Yes. Where they can really get both the support on the, the addiction and the, the TruD, the actual root of the darn thing.
That's right. In other words. And trauma and mottos is, yeah.
Cece Sykes: And there's [00:17:00] definitely, definitely treatment programs that are, uh, very open to it. Dick, Dick has been a consultant now at The Meadows for a number of years. So they've learned a lot of IFS and trauma underneath. And we've been also, uh, teaching on the other side of the country, uh, at High Watch in Connecticut.
John Clarke: Okay.
Cece Sykes: We've been teaching level one there, so they,
John Clarke: that's exciting.
Cece Sykes: That particular organization, all of their staff is trained in IFS level one, level two, level three, and now a second level one. So the bridge is being built on both sides. I love it. And they're totally, this place was, the land for this place was donated to build W in the 1930s.
They love 12 step as they should and support it as as we do. Yeah. And what else can we say other than did you go to a meeting? That's a good question, but we need to say more and to address even the internal stigma.
Mm-hmm.
Kay Gardner says about patriarchy. She says women have an inner, inner patriarchal piece too.
We've learned things and I would say the, [00:18:00] even the client using has an inner part that hates that they use and this internal dynamic
mm-hmm.
Is so they, we stigmatize ourselves and we are stigmatizing the larger world. Yeah.
John Clarke: Totally. Well, I, I might have parts that are delaying showing you my clip, but, uh, also parts I'll be nice that are like, I'll be nice.
Do it. You have a chance to get this?
Cece Sykes: No, it looks something like this, Jen. I think it's totally cool and it'll be very, I am, I'm imagining it'll be super useful for people.
John Clarke: I think so that's why I've done these demos and you know, the more I've done them and put them online, some people are like, I remember my friend who was a psychologist who was like, dude, I can't believe you did that.
I didn't think it was a big deal. But he was like, I can't believe you put yourself out there in that way. And that had me think like, gosh, maybe I should be more self-conscious.
Cece Sykes: What, what is, what risk am I into right here?
John Clarke: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Uh, but then other people being like, so happy to see this. And of course.
Watching my own work back, a lot of times I instantly [00:19:00] see the misses or how I would do that moment differently or whatever,
Cece Sykes: so. Right. I know I do it when I watch myself too. Yeah, exactly.
John Clarke: But it's worth it. Um, well this session, so this is when I had just started doing demos. This was the first person that ever volunteered for a demo a few years ago.
And, um, so I had a preliminary conversation with her on the phone before doing this. She had mentioned, uh, quite a bit of, uh, trauma history in her system. And so, um, we're really just starting out fresh here in the beginning of this session, so I wanna show it to you and get your feedback and ideas and then whenever you want me to pause, just say pause and you can jump in and we can, we can chat.
So, wonderful.
Yeah.
Okay. Here goes nothing.
Cece Sykes: Yep.
So
John Clarke: for the folks listening, um, we were chatting and I've gotten a little bit of background, a little bit of history.
Cece Sykes: And about
John Clarke: other types of therapies you've, you've received. So that was really helpful. And, um, but that being said, yeah. Where, what do you wanna work on today? [00:20:00] A couple technical difficulties. Let me just try again here.
Demo Client: Sure.
John Clarke: Okay. I'll just play it and then remove it whenever you say pause.
Demo Client: Okay. Yeah. I would like to work on, uh, my binge eating disorder. So addiction to food.
John Clarke: Mm-hmm. Great. Okay. Um, tell me more about that. Just start. Talking about it. And as you talk about it, I also want you to notice what develops inside feeling, sensations, something shifting in your body, images.
Um, yeah, let's just see what happens.
Demo Client: Yeah. So it all started when I was together with my ex-partner and, um, he was quite controlling and had a lot of opinions on everything I did. [00:21:00] So, especially on like food that I ate too expensive food or that I ate food that wasn't good for me. And, um, especially sugar.
Like every time I ate sugar, he was really, really bullying me. So I was like, in the end I just started to eat. Specific foods outside of the apartment because, because I was so scared that if I eat it inside, he's gonna comment on me so much. Um, and the food also became a way to handle, like all his comments about how I was working out, what I was doing on my free time, people I was spending time with.
It was just like a resort that I could at least open the refrigerator. Um, yeah.
John Clarke: Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah. So you [00:22:00] just took a big breath there. What's happening in your body?
Demo Client: Um, my body just feels like it's, it wants to cry 'cause it's holding onto so much anxiety.
John Clarke: Yeah.
Demo Client: Uh,
John Clarke: okay. Yeah. Is it okay if we go toward that, that feeling?
If we go toward that anxiety or let it develop a bit.
Demo Client: Yeah.
John Clarke: Okay. Just see what happens when you do that.
Demo Client: Oh, well, it's like, um, it's, it anxiety is saying, well, no, no, no. Don't come here. Don't look here. Don't look at me.
John Clarke: Yeah, don't look at me. Don't look at me. Yeah. Okay. So I, I also want to give, you know, put some guardrails on what we're doing. Meaning, um, if you have parts, specifically protector parts that have concerns about us doing this [00:23:00] session today or doing it in this format, or having it published, um, and other people seeing it, definitely listen to those and check with those parts first before we go a little further.
Demo Client: Mm-hmm. Yeah, of course.
John Clarke: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So see, see what happens when you do that. You might even just kind of go inside and close your eyes if you wanna just ask, Hey, do any parts have concerns right now about us going further?
Demo Client: No. It's more like, yeah, a lot of parts are just screaming help. Like they are drowning.
John Clarke: Yeah. Okay. All right. And how are you feeling toward them?
Demo Client: Um, there's a feeling towards them. There are just like, oh, hush. Don't, don't make such a big fuss. Just be [00:24:00] quiet. Suck it up.
John Clarke: Okay. Can you turn toward the part that says, oh, be quiet. You're just making a big fuss. Suck it up.
Demo Client: Yeah.
John Clarke: I'll pause for a second there.
Cece Sykes: So is this the beginning of, of her session?
John Clarke: Yeah.
Cece Sykes: So she jumps right in.
John Clarke: Yeah.
Cece Sykes: So what's that like for you? Does it feel, how's the pace feel for you when you watch it?
John Clarke: It feels fast, right? Uh, it feels a bit, yeah. Faster than would normally be. Um, and there's also that extra layer of like, it being a, a demo.
So maybe some, if she's feeling any pressure to [00:25:00] like get there or like get to the, the meat of it. Um. And I had wished I had Yes. Slowed her down or checked for that consent first of just what's it like to do this demo and knowing that this will potentially be online if she had a, if she approved it after the session, I always given those options, but I wish I had kinda slowed down and given her those consents first and not once we started to get into her system.
Cece Sykes: Well, okay. Yeah. And again, I, I wasn't thinking, can I say what I was thinking?
John Clarke: Please?
Cece Sykes: Yes. I wasn't, I mean, I really appreciated your conscientiousness about wanting her. You noticed that she was going, getting into it very quickly in the first few moments of meeting you and she'd never met you before, so you notice it.
Right. So I'm, um, I think what I hear you saying is that for you, what you are tracking as clinician is just separate from the demo. Wow. She's, she's talking about something pretty painful.
John Clarke: Yeah.
Cece Sykes: And we've just met, and then so that, and then [00:26:00] secondary to that. Is there something about doing the demo that's related to that?
Is she jumping in fast 'cause it's a demo and she's trying to help me Or is and, or should I remind her this is a demo and help her slow down? So it sounds like you're kind of riding those two rails.
John Clarke: Yeah.
Am I
Cece Sykes: hearing that right?
John Clarke: That's right. Yeah.
Cece Sykes: Yeah. And that makes sense. Um, but, but, but the idea around the demo wasn't paramount in my mind because it doesn't matter.
She can say no at the end and never go do it. Yeah. Um, but I was thinking about her pacing and so I was really liked when you said to her, how was it like to talk to me about this? And then she had these parts that said, you know, don't talk to me about this. Don't go there. And then these other parts that are like, help me.
Demo Client: Yeah.
Cece Sykes: So is what I heard. So for me, probably I would've at some point just, and also just the painful relationship. Totally.
John Clarke: Uh,
Cece Sykes: I mean, weren't you feeling that a little bit as she spoke about [00:27:00] this former relationship?
Absolutely.
The cruelty of, yeah.
John Clarke: With that,
Cece Sykes: the parts of her former partner, so awesome that he's former or I mean it's a, he they often that they are former.
John Clarke: Yeah.
Cece Sykes: Um, a former partner, but at the same time I was relieved for her about that, that she somehow f found a way out of the relationship with that person. Yeah. But at the same time, I'm curious, so were you feeling into a, an emotional response around, wow, that sounds like it was a tough situation for you, or, you know?
Yeah. Was any of that in your mind around some of that?
John Clarke: Well, I think what I was thinking is, and, and I know she has done other therapy work non IFS work, and so when a client comes in with a, a story or an idea of like, this is what I think the root is, or this is when this began. Right, right. Um, I'm hearing that and also wondering.
Is there a moment to, for us to [00:28:00] see which parts are alive right now in relation to this story, right? Yes. Um, sometimes it's helpful that they already have that story. Like this is when the pattern developed, right? Or for, for her. Right. This is when the concealing started to happen and then did it more.
Mm-hmm. Right. And I knew if, if I didn't conceal it, it was pretty bad. Right. And he would, um, not be nice to me. So I'm, I'm hearing that. And I guess I'm also looking for a, a, um, an opening to, to invite her inside and see how well she can tolerate going inside. And we find out pretty quickly and we get a pretty loud response.
Right. All these parts screaming and then another part like, oh, shush. Right? Like real specific energy. Like, oh, shush, all of you just shush. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Cece Sykes: Well, she certainly jumps right into saying, I've got disordered eating. So this is primary for her and I appreciate what you're saying, which is she has her own story and of course as a clinician, and I'm sure for you, I don't think anybody's story [00:29:00] started last in their relation, you know, in their last relationship.
However, at the same, I mean, there's always a root, but at the same time I truly get it that the nature of that relationship was in particular quite painful for her and exaggerated some things or, or again, she may have other issues, but not so much a food issue until she was in this thing. So, you know, we don't know yet.
Uh, but I hear you what you're saying about bringing her in the moment, and here's the shortest answer. We've done a lot of this, but this is where's my mind is going around this as I hear this polarity go there, don't go there. Right. Parts that are screaming for help and parts that say, you know, don't even get involved in that.
So for me, where I go is say, let's bring both of those sides together.
John Clarke: That's right.
Cece Sykes: And just name how it's like to have parts that say, I have to fix this now. And other parts that are, say it's a mess. Get away from it. You got rid of, you got rid of the relationship, get rid, you know, like that. So I will, I like to say, so I'm kind of [00:30:00] hearing can sometimes in those moments I say, can I reflect this back to you?
Right. In parts language, which maybe you're about to do you wanna keep going? Sure. Yeah. Let's, let's see. But that's what I'm, I'm very much hearing these, the polarity right now. Yeah.
John Clarke: Yeah. I'm, I think what's happening here is this part that just said, oh, shush. Um, now I'm seeing if she can turn toward that part and what, what happens there.
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Right. See what happens. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Yeah, it's really the, the audio gets like kind of wonky here and there, but it, it levels out eventually,
Demo Client: but it's also ashamed because it's, it knows it is doing the wrong thing.
John Clarke: Um, okay. It's angry, but it's also ashamed. Yeah. Okay. And how do you experience this part?
What, what does it look like, sound like? Do you get any particular image or sensation in your body?
Demo Client: Well, uh, well, of course it looks like my father, uh, it's like his voice.
Yeah. Just looks like him with a [00:32:00] angry face.
John Clarke: Okay.
Demo Client: All, uh, it feels like he's gonna become violent towards me.
John Clarke: Okay. All right. Meaning in this moment that he might do that?
Demo Client: Yeah.
John Clarke: Okay. Mm-hmm. All right. So do me a favor and just either ask him for a little space or you could, um, contain yourself in a bubble of white lights or you, and, or you could contain him in a similar bubble or even in a more [00:33:00] sturdy structure like a room.
Demo Client: I'm, I'm so afraid of him that I am not, I'm afraid to ask him to sit down, so
yeah. May, maybe I will put myself in like another room or in a bubble.
John Clarke: That's a, that sounds like a good idea. So you can create that space or take that space for yourself. Mm-hmm. And we can worry later about asking him for that space, knowing that that might not go well.
Demo Client: Mm-hmm.
John Clarke: Yeah. Okay.
Okay. Couple technical, difficult. So we had, yeah, we had the sound all cut out in that very critical moment, and then I kind [00:34:00] of, we, we jumped back in. But curious to get your thoughts on, on that, that piece.
Cece Sykes: Well, here she's, I mean, for me, again, if she was my client, I would say, so I think you invited her to go toward the part, was it the part that was screaming for which part would you were directing her toward?
The father was screaming for help.
John Clarke: It was the, the part that came in and said, oh, shush. To the, to the, the. Kind of cluster of parts that were screaming help.
Cece Sykes: Okay. Right. Yeah. So I just hear a combination of protectors and exile here.
John Clarke: Yeah.
Cece Sykes: So, and I also hear her saying the part looks like my father, and then she's really blended with the exile.
John Clarke: That's right.
Cece Sykes: That didn't have autonomy and voice with her father. It sounds like he was a scary person. Mm-hmm. So now we're into, uh, the parts that hold some old really painful stuff for her right away. And I'm sure you're, I mean, I'm sure you're thinking that too. Mm-hmm. And yet for me, I would say a couple things.
I'd say [00:35:00] so I would say so again, I will comment, I will probably comment on what she's telling me. So I just say, so I just would wanna say, Jane, you know, I just hear you telling me that things, am I hearing this right, that things were quite difficult with your father? That he's a di very difficult person.
You know, and I would, I think I would make that contact statement with her around what I was hearing.
John Clarke: Mm-hmm.
Cece Sykes: And, um, I'm, I'm really kind of okay having people tell me a little of the story as it emerges and then kind of shifting back to parts. Uh, I think,
John Clarke: yeah,
Cece Sykes: Dick, you to say that we send managers out to tell the story so that they can see if we can handle them.
So I kind of like hearing some things, but anyway, having said that,
John Clarke: yeah.
Cece Sykes: When someone sees a part as their parent, actually, then I say something like, so there's parts of you that remember your father and how angry and difficulty was, and that was, that's, they're stressful. And then there's other parts of you that sort of seem like [00:36:00] him.
Like that they're, your parts are angry. They're angry and stressful.
John Clarke: Mm-hmm.
Cece Sykes: Stressful. And I'd say something like, but your father isn't here. So he may still be out there doing what he does. I don't know. Well, you know, I'm waiting to hear more about that for you, but at the same time, what I hear is a part of you absorbed his energy.
John Clarke: Yeah.
Cece Sykes: A part of you absorbed the capacity to be mean-spirited and Yeah. Controlling. And, and he, and it's painful that a part of you developed all that e absorbed all his energy, but the good part is if it's your part, we can work with it. So you're jumping into working with it. Right. Yeah. But I would distinguish it as something within her power to work with really specifically
John Clarke: so fascinating.
And I do find this comes up a lot with clients. This just came up yesterday in a a, a class I was teaching, um, where. There's a part that sounds, and even looks a lot like mom. Right? [00:37:00] Right. And then there's this kind of question of like, is it mom? Is that like literally mom's energy in your system? Is it a part that has learned from mom and mimics mom?
Right. Or again, even this, this energy around, oh, shush. Right? That's a real specific energy of like an overwhelmed parent who's like, I just need all y'all in the back of the minivan to shush, you know, or worse. Mm-hmm. Um, so yeah, I'm really curious how you, if you can say more about Yeah. How you helped flesh that out.
Cece Sykes: Yeah. I, in the, the person is holding this experience within their own body home and within their themselves in this moment. So for me, I don't have a lot of question in my own mind. Yeah. There might be a point where someone's parent enters into a scene, but in this moment I would say, do you think it's possible?
I wouldn't tell them. And I'd say, do you so. So you have a part right now, you're with a part that looks or sounds a lot like [00:38:00] your parent, your father or your mother. Mm-hmm. And, um, and yet they're not here. So do you think it's possible, can we check with this part? Do you think it's absorbed some of their energy?
John Clarke: Mm-hmm.
Cece Sykes: So I like what you're doing. You're helping her flesh that part out. What does it look like? What does it sound like? And then since she said it sounds and looks like my father, and I would say that's just where I go kind of almost inevitably I say, and yet your father's not here.
John Clarke: Yeah.
Cece Sykes: Just check with that part and ask it if it seems to be holding some of your father's energy, or does it learn that back in the day?
Yes. So this to me is empowering because many people, uh, still have active family who are out there actively Oh yeah. Unchanged and actively or are living with them. Aggressive. Yeah. Or living with them. That's right, John. Exactly. So this way, and I say to clients all the time, if we can work with your part.
This beating you up, this part's mad at another party, yours. [00:39:00] And if you and I work with this, you're gonna feel a lot more empowered when you have to deal with them out there. Yeah. Nice. So there's a lot of hope in that. It's a lot of empowerment in that, which I believe there is.
John Clarke: Yeah. Well, I love that line around, notice that he's not here.
I, I, last week I did this in a session in person where I said, and of course this part is terrified, right. Of dad, and also have your parts notice that dad's not here in this room in my office. Right. It's you here. And also it's me here. So sometimes I'll invite them to connect to me a little more if that seems like it could be a resource.
And so it's just kinda like a mini update of like, oh, oh, that, yeah, I guess he's not in this room even though he does still exist. Or I do have to go see him next weekend or whatever. Right. So parts are very aware of, you know. Of that.
Cece Sykes: These are, yeah. Right. These are active, troubling, uh, situations. And yeah.
For this one though, I would say this harsh one sounds like for [00:40:00] this current client, this woman that's a protector, it's a angry manager that beats up her parts mm-hmm. About food and other things. And this one like that you're talking about, this sounds like a little exile that's holding all the fear and Totally.
I think the woman you were with actually probably the fear was there and the protector was there. So then we we're splitting her. It will help her to say, so there's a part of you, part of him, and a part of you that knows how to be mean. And then there's little ones that have been very, very hurt. But on the outside.
On the outside and sometimes from the inside too, so,
John Clarke: well yeah.
Cece Sykes: To track that. But you, right, like this one yesterday, that's a little exile, right? Yeah. So then you're wanting to bring some self into for the exile.
John Clarke: Well, regardless of, of what it is, um. She's blended with the part that's feeling scared of dad or dad's energy or whatever.
Cece Sykes: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
John Clarke: So that's the current focus now of this moment. Right. And that's what's making this [00:41:00] moment kind of tenuous. Right. We're gonna kind of see where it goes, but, um, yeah, and also I'm learning about her system is it moves fast and something I learned, 'cause I ended up doing a series of demos with her, is, um, she can get quite dissociated Right.
Quite fast. And so when we get into some, um, uh, yeah, deeper waters or heavy material or whatever, she, she can get, you know, pretty, feel pretty spacey. So later we end up having to work with Adam, work around that, and kind of partner with those dissociative parts. Um, but again, yeah, in this moment I'm, I'm, I'm learning her system on the fly and trying to figure out, um, how, how deep can we go here?
And even in this demo setting and all that. Yeah. Okay. Let's see what happens next.
Ties here with our sound, but we're gonna pick back up. Um, you mentioned, yeah, seeing this part that looks like, uh, this [00:42:00] father figure, it looks like your father. So we were just about to try to create a little bit of space or create a little bit of protection for you. So you might try to do that now and just see how it goes.
Demo Client: Um, yeah, I can, I can put myself in another room.
John Clarke: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. See how, just see how that goes and see if you can get a little bit curious about what's happening with you in another room with just encountering this part that looks like dad.
Demo Client: How do you mean? Like, I am in one room and then what will I encounter?
John Clarke: Well, let's clarify a little bit what you're seeing in that room. Are you seeing a, a part of you or does [00:43:00] it look like you today?
Demo Client: Uh, you mean the self or the one who's screaming for help?
John Clarke: Yeah. Just trying to clarify which one you've put in the room.
Demo Client: Uh, that is the, the self.
John Clarke: Okay. Alright. So how does it feel to have self in that room?
Demo Client: Well, it feels like I should be out there defending my exile, my inner child from my father.
John Clarke: Okay.
Demo Client: It feels like I'm hiding.
John Clarke: You might check and see if it's a part that's hiding. The part that retreated from dad and was scared of Dad just now?
Demo Client: Yeah, absolutely.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
John Clarke: Okay. [00:44:00] All right. So then turn toward the part that's scared and check in, see how you're feeling toward it.
Demo Client: I am disgusted by it. Like, um, it's so weak. Okay. Hmm.
John Clarke: Okay. A lot going on here. Um, a something I wish I had done, CCE is anytime a client says like, I feel like I want to go do x. I tend to say go do X, right? If, if there's self energy, it's like, I want to give that part a hug. I would usually say, yeah, does it feel all right to go ahead and give that part a hug and see what happens?
She had kind of said her experience of self, that self is here and self wants to go protect all these parts from dad. Um, [00:45:00] so I guess I kind of wish I had said, could you go do that and see what happens? But, and then it, it took us somewhere else. So yeah. What do you think?
Cece Sykes: Yeah, a lot going on there. And, um, now does she seems like she knows IFS language a little bit.
John Clarke: Yeah, she knows enough. She's read no bad parts. Um, she's
Cece Sykes: okay, so she's read no bad parts.
John Clarke: Yeah.
Cece Sykes: And so does she kind of come also for some IFS therapy? Like she's kind of wanting or prepared for that?
John Clarke: Yes. She specifically wanted if FS. Yeah. And knows. Knows the basics.
Cece Sykes: Ah, right. Yeah. Well, again, I probably, in general, I've been doing this more and more lately, John, and you can tell me what you think about it.
Yeah. But when someone first comes in, I feel like I want them to see more than just a part. I want them to sort of see how [00:46:00] their system, the pattern of their life. Mm. So what pattern they have. And so we're hearing again, from a part of her that's disgusted with the little one for being so vulnerable.
That's right.
John Clarke: Yeah.
Cece Sykes: And she feels disgusted toward that little vulnerable one. And she also feels protective of it. You know, she felt like when she, she kind of got the idea that self should be in a room. Well, she's self, so that got com you know, she's self so she can't exactly put self in a room's. She could go in a room.
Demo Client: That's right. Yeah.
Cece Sykes: Um, but, uh, so again, it is a common thing to people don't, people know self is an a part, but they sort of cheat it like a apart, okay, self come over here, stand next to me. You know, like that. Yeah. So she's trying to learn all that and you're trying to manage that with her, which is a lot.
Right. So I probably would do something like, again, I am, I do more reflection to someone around their system, [00:47:00] I might say. Mm. Interesting. So can I tell you what I'm hearing here? Yeah. So see if I've got this right. So, yeah, there's a little, now this, this is part that's really. Disgusted with the little one.
The little one's, yeah. Still here. And now I'm hearing that there's a part of you that's very disgusted with that little one.
Mm.
And then rather than doing the, you can do the bubble or other kind of money, just say, how do you notice that disgusted one? Because Yeah, it, it's what you're noticing. She blends with it.
John Clarke: Yes.
And
Cece Sykes: we so often blend with our judging managers.
John Clarke: Yep.
Cece Sykes: It's, so we're talking about the earlier, our earlier conversation, you know how western culture is so of stigmatizes all kinds of vulnerability.
John Clarke: Yeah.
Cece Sykes: And outta control behavior, which also makes us vulnerable. So she's blending to me, I hear her blending with that manager.
Yeah. And you're working and you know it. Yeah. And you're trying to get some space from that. Yeah. But I might just say, can I just say so is that right? Do is there, do you notice a little one? [00:48:00] And then how you notice the one who's disgusted? Yeah.
John Clarke: So it's so interesting. So I think. For whatever reason, I've been taught to do less of that reflecting.
'cause the fear is like it'll bring them out of their system. But in reality I think it kind of anchors into. Helping them get a bird's eye view of what's happening here. Anchors is the word.
Cece Sykes: Yes. I
John Clarke: think so, John.
Because a lot of times what I'll is toward the end of the session, as we come out of the insight work, I'll give them time for us to kind of chat about what happened today.
And that's when I might have this conversation around, yeah, this part that looked and sounded like your dad came in and then this part. So how do you notice that? That's nice. How was that for her? Add it. Add it to your parts map. I, I do that with most everyone 'cause I think it helps them again, rise above it a bit and go, here's what happened today.
And then as John, it's like, here's what I kind of notice happening, you know, and here's what I saw your system kind of doing and here's some key players. So maybe I should do more of that in the moment. 'cause that could really help anchor the work, you know, as it's happening. 'cause [00:49:00] again, her and her system's moving like that.
Cece Sykes: Well it's interesting because again, she's coming in primed, loaded for bear, as we say, ready to go with her IFS. And so in a way we are in a dilemma.
John Clarke: Yeah.
Cece Sykes: Should we just jump in? 'cause she's ready to jump in Or should we in some way pace this? Yeah. So that there's some sort of foundation we're working from.
That's right. So a little bit while I watch her, I wanna know, I want that foundation a little bit. Did you feel any of that working with her or not so much?
John Clarke: Feel the foundation,
Cece Sykes: wanting to know a little bit more about her as you took her into these tender places. Definitely. Did you feel that or not so much?
John Clarke: Definitely. I, yeah, I, I definitely felt myself wanting to know that. And, um, I'm, I'm also, I'm getting information about her and her family and now I'm, this is the first I'm hearing about dad and going, okay, dad is maybe a polarizing figure in her life. Right? There's this, uh, partner that she had who has been not [00:50:00] nice right.
And, and abusive. So I'm hearing about that.
Cece Sykes: So pattern you're hearing those patterns are starting to come to you. Yeah. Yeah. I'm even with
John Clarke: outside of IFS, I'm, I'm in that assessment mode, um, while also trying to be present here with her and with her system and trying to gauge to what degree can she tolerate going inside.
Right. And, um, yeah, so I, I specifically wanted to show you her because of Yeah. How her system moves and how quickly, you know, you saw she got blended in a couple of these moments. And also she has moments where she's very connected to self and that can be a very vivid experience for her. Um, and she feels it very somatically.
She has images when she's really in self and she can really bring that to parts at times. So we, over the few sessions, you know, we start building more of that, that skill and capacity. But in this session, we're just kind of off to the races with a bunch happening all at once.
Cece Sykes: Well, right. And it's just so interesting.
So it obviously worked out, but here we're coming back in the day. I told this story recently when I was taking the [00:51:00] level one here in Chicago in the 90. Uh, we didn't have, it wasn't called level one. It was just called IFS. It's all that existed. And so it was really called Dick's model,
John Clarke: right?
Yeah, yeah.
Cece Sykes: You know, that's what we were taking away. And um, and I said, he's like, you know, I would like to try this. He goes, well call this guy and you can go and have some sessions with him. I go, okay. So I go and I sit down with him and I'm in the level one. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you too. That's right. So he takes me right inside and we go inside and I'm my find this 10-year-old part of me, and then this other thing happens, and then I have this whole internal reaction.
And I later on my train ride home, I was in a total backlash. I'm like, yeah, what the actual f Yep. I don't know this guy. I don't know where he's going with me. I don't, I, I don't feel safe.
John Clarke: Absolutely.
Cece Sykes: I didn't feel safe to have that level of experience.
John Clarke: Yeah.
Cece Sykes: With someone I didn't know. And so I think, I'm not saying everyone's like me 'cause she and you are working together.
So it all worked out. But I think [00:52:00] I'm more, uh, in the beginning at least, just reflecting, letting people know, let, letting people get mirrored. I see you, this is what I'm hearing. Do I have this right? Yeah. Let's pause. That's nice.
John Clarke: Mm-hmm.
Cece Sykes: Um, as a way to, uh, provide that, uh, safe context. And also, you know, if you grow up in, uh, trauma, chaotic or harsh or authoritarian systems.
Yeah. We're so not mirrored the way we That's right. See ourselves the way we need to be seen. So mirroring can be powerful for people. Yeah. Oops. Are we freezing a little bit? Yeah. Is it just me? You're good. Is it, is it okay? A little bit all.
John Clarke: You're still good?
Cece Sykes: Oh, okay. Good. Yeah. Um, so I think there's a part of me that, uh.
I think just because those are my needs now.
John Clarke: Yeah.
Cece Sykes: Um, for you, I hear what you're saying, you're just sort of testing the waters with her and going with Yeah. Her initial request, which is [00:53:00] to learn about IFS and her system.
John Clarke: That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. I'm, I'm s I'm more and more aware of when parts A client's parts have urgency and the therapist parts have urgency around, like either getting something done here or our excitement to show someone the model or give 'em a taste of it, or in this case, this element that this is a demo.
We both know it's being recorded. Right. And she's bringing a lot, or even how she started this session of kind of going right to it, right and right to the, the, the eating stuff and the food and the partner. Um, so I'm aware of those elements. So the whole first 15 minutes looks and feels very accelerated because it is, um, and I want to both honor like parts that really.
Wanna be heard or tell me that story? Um, yes. And also, and have my own brake pedal to pump it and go, yeah, we've got more than enough time for me to hear all of that, you know, in this work, you know, we can slow it down. What would it be like to slow it down? [00:54:00] So, yeah, the, it's, it's an unusual circumstance to do a session and, and then sometimes like people, my fear is like, you know, a therapist will see this demo and be like, do it like that, or, it should be this fast, or whatever.
And it's like, most demos, they're really not ordinary sessions. It's often slow or clunky, or the client goes inside for 30 seconds and then goes back to talking about football. You know, it's like,
Cece Sykes: right. Yeah. But I like what you're naming, which is the urgency or the sort of fun, the, the drive many clients arrive with, and particularly in this case.
With her processes around food, they're troubling to her.
John Clarke: Oh yeah. That's why she's here. And that's urgent for
Cece Sykes: you.
Yes. This was her motivator to be with you.
John Clarke: Yeah. That's why she signed up.
Cece Sykes: Mm-hmm. I might also say, you know, for me, I'm also, again, I'm listening and at the same time I might say, of course this is, it's, it's good.
I, I'm a hundred percent percent with you. I support your goal to work on this food thing. It [00:55:00] sounds, it's like it's been become quite painful and stressful. Yeah. And at the same time, uh, in this model, we might say, the parts of you that are urgent do, do you're feeling some Yeah. Some of this urgency. Let's just notice that.
Right. Does that feel familiar to you to push yourself? Yeah. You know, so at the same time, we give a chance to have a little unblend from, and, you know, and listen to, because again, part of that pushing is also what stresses her exiles.
John Clarke: That's right.
Cece Sykes: And then causes her firefighters to have to soothe again with food.
Is this push, push, push. My hunch is totally in other parts of her life, right?
John Clarke: Absolutely.
Cece Sykes: So I'm always listening very, very hard in the early part of work.
Demo Client: Yeah.
Cece Sykes: For the way we all blend with those managers that want ourselves to be better
John Clarke: uhhuh.
Cece Sykes: Yeah, no doubt. And just gently not, yeah. Because we're not really even [00:56:00] aware of it.
But just gently start to tease that out as parts of us that, you know, have high expectations or Yeah. You know, and, and really also severe judgment.
John Clarke: Yeah,
Cece Sykes: yeah,
John Clarke: yeah. So something I'm thinking about is like, part of how we keep the work safe is we go slow. We work with protectors first and foremost. We get consent, we.
Check ad knowum for self energy and make sure it's really there. Um, and there, there's some of those pieces that were in this, you know, clip. And also I would've liked to have done more of that to really make sure how do we keep this work safe for her and her system? And again, given how much polarity is, uh, is, is in her system.
Cece Sykes: So, but I wouldn't say it's going slow. Mm. To name the parts that are in the room with us.
John Clarke: Sure, sure. I mean,
Cece Sykes: I know what you mean. Yeah. But it might, but it would be even to start really with what's it like to notice [00:57:00] that urgency. So I love really, I, I like that you're respecting her desire to work on her disordered eating.
John Clarke: Mm-hmm.
Cece Sykes: You know, this is, this is, we wanna respect what, what brought people here.
John Clarke: Mm-hmm.
But it's,
Cece Sykes: i, I don't think it's working slow to help someone notice that. At the same time, I think that also when their protectors notice them,
John Clarke: yeah.
Cece Sykes: That's another way that safety gets created in the system.
Yeah,
John Clarke: that makes sense.
Does that make sense? Yeah. Being deliberate and thorough,
Cece Sykes: here is a good word. Yeah. Deliberate around those un blends. That's right, John. Because yeah. I guess because of my, so working so long with trauma and addictive processes.
John Clarke: Yeah.
Cece Sykes: That polarity between hating what I do to myself and yet having to do it.
Yes. That polarity is so ever present. I'm absolutely over. I'm very acutely listening for that. Which you helped her find. She found [00:58:00] that discuss for her weakness.
John Clarke: Yes.
Cece Sykes: And I'm sure she's got the same disgust for whatever she's got around food.
John Clarke: That's right. Yeah.
Cece Sykes: And so that's where, that's a handle. And you can go back to that.
John Clarke: Yeah. Okay. Well, I'm. I am glad I showed you this clip because this was amazing.
Cece Sykes: How are you, how are you, John? How are you after showing that clip?
John Clarke: I'm great. I'm great. Yeah. I, yeah, you were, um, yeah, you were, you were great. And, um, yeah, it, it's always humbling, you know, showing my work. It's one of those things, uh, it's like, it's humbling and, um, but also like, I really believe in putting myself out there in this way.
'cause if a single person can benefit from this, whether they're a client to see the model in action or a therapist going like, let me learn, you know, from other people's work or seeing the model Yeah. In action. It's really helpful. And then to have someone like you who's just a, a, a legend in IFS, like, what a treat for [00:59:00] me to get that feedback so everything makes sense.
And um, you know, I think it's also about. Giving ourselves grace as we use the model and learn it or learn about system, you know? And so how about it? I find that if we do miss the mark, if and when we miss the mark, clients are often more gracious than we fear they would be if we do miss the mark.
Cece Sykes: Well, and you continue.
So, so the bottom line is Martha Swee wrote this, uh, in our book.
John Clarke: Yeah.
Cece Sykes: And she said the goal of the first session is a second session in particular with addictive process mm-hmm. That are so attached to stigma and shame. That's great. And so you got, you have had numerous sessions. You guys have developed your clinical connection.
So it clearly, even as I have my perspective, it clearly worked for you guys.
John Clarke: Yeah.
Cece Sykes: So it's the both and, and, um, that's right. So it, it continued and, um, that's right. [01:00:00] And, and how, is she still a client or,
John Clarke: yeah.
Cece Sykes: Good.
John Clarke: Yeah. Yeah. So, um, yeah, and a handful of our first sessions are on, on YouTube, so some people, people can watch them as a series and see how the work develops, which is really fascinating and, and see how the, she and I kind of do this dance with, with IFS and how I learn her system and she learns her own system.
And, uh, again, real moments, there's some unburdening moments in later sessions and lots of self-energy and also lots of, um, potential pitfalls with the work or moments where that blending can happen fast. So, um, yeah, it, it's, I'm really lucky to have worked with her and a lot of people online have commented what an honor it is to see her story and her journey.
So, uh, I'm really lucky that people are so courageous to,
Cece Sykes: but I love that you are taking, just going right to it, which is just, let's look at this work together.
John Clarke: Yeah.
Cece Sykes: And, um, that's. [01:01:00] Rather than talk about, it's very, it's, yeah, it's sort of you're taking the experiential aspect of I Fs and really laying it out there.
John Clarke: Yeah. Let's experience this together. How I learn.
Cece Sykes: That's, that's how I learned. Yeah. I love it.
John Clarke: Well, this was a real treat for me and certainly for our listeners, thank you against so much for doing this, for your tremendous work in IFS and in, in therapy at large. So thank you again for doing this and um, you're welcome back.
Anytime.
Cece Sykes: Well, it's delight to be with you and I love what you're doing. It's, it is truly a gift for, uh, for everyone to sort of, to get, to get into the weeds.
Demo Client: Yes. No better way to get into the weeds.
Cece Sykes: Then watch the weeds unfold.
John Clarke: Yeah.
Cece Sykes: In front of our eyes. That's right. Thank you so much, John.
John Clarke: Thanks again.
Sees talk soon. Bye.
Thanks for listening to another episode of Going Inside. If you enjoyed this episode, please like and subscribe wherever you're listening or watching, and share your favorite episode with a friend. You can follow me on Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok at [01:02:00] johnclarketherapy and apply to work with me one-on-one at johnclarketherapy.com.
See you next time.