From Parts to Parenting: IFS Insights with Anna Vincentz

Written By John Clarke

From Parts to Parenting: IFS Insights with Anna Vincentz

What if parenting challenges—and therapeutic resistance—make perfect sense? In this episode, John Clarke sits down with Danish IFS therapist and parenting model creator Anna Vincentz to explore how Internal Family Systems (IFS) offers a powerful lens for working with both clients and their families. Anna shares how her personal journey with neurodivergence, trauma, and parenthood led her to develop New Danish Parenting, a model that centers nervous system regulation, attachment, and deep curiosity.

This conversation is packed with practical insights for therapists navigating complex systems—inside and out.

3 Key Takeaways:

  1. Why “bad behavior” in children and clients is a survival strategy—not a diagnosis—and how to reframe it in session.

  2. How Anna’s New Danish Parenting model bridges IFS, attachment, and practical neurodivergent-informed tools for clinicians.

  3. What to do when your client is “just talking” and not ready to go deeper—without trying to force the model.

Guest: Anna Vincentz
Anna Vincentz is a Certified Level 3 IFS Therapist, Family Therapist, and creator of New Danish Parenting (NDP)—a model designed for parents, therapists, and practitioners seeking deeper understanding of attachment, trauma, and relational healing. Anna specializes in working with neurodivergent and highly sensitive individuals, and brings a compassionate, trauma-informed lens to every session. A mother of two neurodivergent children, Anna integrates her lived experience into both her clinical work and teaching.

Learn more about Anna:

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Transcript:

Anna Vincentz: [00:00:00] But of course, there's so many different ways to 

John Clarke: mm-hmm. 

Anna Vincentz: To work on self-development and getting to know yourself and the insight, getting to know your triggers so you don't, you don't keep passing them on because we do that, we, our parents did that, their parents did that, and there's so much running down the stream to our kids, unless we actually heal it and begin to change it.

John Clarke: Going Inside is a podcast on a mission to help people heal from trauma and reconnect with their authentic self. Join me trauma therapist John Clarke for guest interviews, real life therapy sessions, and soothing guided meditations. Whether you're navigating your own trauma, helping others heal from trauma, or simply yearning for a deeper understanding of yourself, going inside is your companion on the path to healing and self-discovery.

Download free guided meditations and apply to work with me one-on-one at johnclarketherapy.com. Thanks for being here. Let's dive in.

I'm excited to introduce my guest for today. Anna Vincentz is here with me. Anna is a certified level three trained IFS therapist, [00:01:00] certified family therapist, IFIO trained. Uh, Anna is Danish, a mother of two children also, uh, has created the new Danish parenting model, which is helpful for both, uh, parents, for self-development and for therapists and practitioners.

Anna, thanks so much for being here. Uh, what else should people know about who you are and how you got here? 

Anna Vincentz: Well, thank you for having me here. Well, I don't know. There's so much, there's so many different things I could say about, 

John Clarke: that's a good question. 

Anna Vincentz: Yeah, it is. It is . but I got into to working with the therapy and becoming a therapist because things were difficult in my own family.

And I couldn't figure out what I was doing wrong, wrong. So I started taking classes and, and that ended up becoming a family therapist education and then build on that IFS and here I am. 

John Clarke: Yeah, 

Anna Vincentz: that was really fast. Yeah. Of a bunch of years. 

John Clarke: That's great. That's great. [00:02:00] Uh, yeah, like many therapists, we, we got here because of our own history and personal journey and Yeah.

Yeah. And then extending that to, to others, but we benefit greatly from our training. We benefit personally from our training, getting to apply it to our own lives, hopefully. 

Anna Vincentz: Yes. 

John Clarke: Yeah. 

Anna Vincentz: Yes. Yeah. Actually a lot of the things that I learned made a lot of sense, but some of it didn't really help much for my own family and my own kids.

John Clarke: Mm-hmm. 

Anna Vincentz: Um, so I think the, the journey has really continued a lot for me. And then. Coming to now. I real, I've been realizing that, well, neuro divergent in my family, um, and my kids have both have diagnosis now. So some of things that fit for, for typical families actually don't really fit. Um, necessarily for my family.

So things have continued being difficult where I could see I could help other families and other people. It didn't always help in my own, yeah. In [00:03:00] my own things, in my own family. So it's really a, a journey that keeps going and going. 

John Clarke: Mm-hmm. 

Anna Vincentz: Also, because things are difficult. Right. 

John Clarke: Yeah, 

Anna Vincentz: for sure. That makes sense.

Yeah. 

John Clarke: Well, I, I know, um, yeah, you've mentioned your kids and we talked before hitting record about discussing, uh, parenting, which we've covered on this show just a couple times, , IFS and parenting. But, um, I'd love to Yeah, dive further into that. So how did you get interested in . I guess working with parents on the professional side, obviously you have your personal experience, and then tell us more about the, the kind of model you've created for, for parenting.

Anna Vincentz: Sure, sure. Well, I kind of. Through my, through my education that was for families. So I just started working with couples and families as I was learning all these things. And in Denmark we have something called the New Child View, which is, uh, really, really helpful. There's something called [00:04:00] Family lab that's comes from Denmark, but a lot of other countries have it as well.

Um, that really tells us about it. Different ways of approaching our children that are most respectful, more loving, where it's a lot about making sense of, which is something that's really important for me, making sense of our children and making sense of ourselves in, in relation to our children and to our partner as well.

Um, and IFS really builds on that, on this understanding through development attachment. Um, knowing ourselves, understanding how relationships really build us, really form us in so many ways. 

John Clarke: Mm-hmm. 

Anna Vincentz: Um. Okay, 

John Clarke: So basically this is, this is a program that your government created or something that's kind of available to people.

Anna Vincentz: It's not, not the government, but it comes, there's a, there's a Danish, um, family therapist who he died a few years ago, but who wrote like so many books and started a lot of things. [00:05:00] Um, so he was part of actually starting my education. Um, when, back when it started and when things happened and it changed a lot.

I see. But a lot of the, a lot of the work, a lot of the teachings there was really built on, uh, this approach and this understanding really, which is really, it's really understanding development. It's really understanding attachment and the nervous system and, and how we interact and why we interact the way we're doing what we can do instead.

I see. When it doesn't work.

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Yeah, how, how did that change the way you see children and the needs of a child? 

Anna Vincentz: Well, it really changed the way I see myself first and foremost because I came into it feeling like there's something I can't do here. There's something that's wrong with me, both in relation to being my parent when things were difficult, but also just in general in life.

So some people really know, you know those people up on stage over there, or the teachers, they know what they're doing, you know, they kind of got it together. There's something different. That's like something really separating us. [00:07:00] And I'm over here. I'm not really good enough. I have a lot of shame. I don't really know what I'm doing.

I go into freeze a lot. All these kind of things. 

John Clarke: Mm-hmm. 

Anna Vincentz: And then when I started the education, we learned so much about attachment. We learned about the brain, how it works, how it's really formed through our relationships. And I realized this is, things happened to me. Things were difficult in my childhood.

So I learned to shut down. I learned to not feel what I'm feeling. I learned to di disconnect from my body. So when people tell me to just listen to your gut feeling, I don't feel anything. You know, so understanding that is and understanding why and going into, that's what we do in IFS too. We, we go into the, the things that happened when that, when that's important and witness those places and we begin to change it.

But even just understanding that, that there's a different narrative than the one that we often made up. When we lack another one, it's not always correct and that's, I think that's one of my really important roles as a therapist. One thing is the deeper [00:08:00] healing, but the steps towards that is there's a meaning making, being really being seen.

Um, that's such an important part of that. And I think especially for a neurodivergent client. Most of my clients are neurodivergent in one way or another. And often there's this feeling of nobody really gets it. I need to kind of translate myself. Yeah. Um, so, so really working in that, understanding them, understanding it sometimes a kind of a different way of thinking and helping them piece it together and really get themselves takes away so much shame, takes away a lot of those re um, reactions that keep things stuck.

John Clarke: Absolutely. Yeah. 

Anna Vincentz: So that's, so this is actually why I created a big part of why I created this, um, new Danish parenting is to help people understand themselves, understand relationships, and understand their children 

John Clarke: Yeah. 

Anna Vincentz: And help them move forward from there. 

John Clarke: Yeah. I love it. In IFS we focus a lot on repairing internal [00:09:00] attachment.

Yes. Um, and yet a lot of the. Burdens and wounding and beliefs that parts pick up are from these early templates and early attachment experiences. Do I matter to you? Do my feelings matter? Yes. Are my feelings too much for you? Um. Will you be there when I need you the most? Or maybe you're there sometimes.

Right, exactly. Or sometimes you're irate when I'm upset. Right. So it's actually not okay to be sad or I only get love when I'm really shiny and get good grades, you know? Yes. Whatever it is. And then as adults, we're walking around often being very led by these, these burdens and this wounding and it drives us to do incredible things.

Anna Vincentz: And yes, some of the most, we built so much on that. Right. So much. I hope this analogy sometimes, 

John Clarke: Yeah. This is who I am, right? Like, yes, you know, I live in Silicon Valley and, uh, people come here to be special and to be, you know, successful and be the, the one startup that makes it. And, um. [00:10:00] I often see the most successful people have the, the, the most severe core wounding Yes.

Around worthlessness. Yes. Right. 'cause it's, it's not in our nature to work 80 hours a week, you know, and be trying to prove for 20 years that you're special. Right. Yeah. It feels really high stakes. It feels like if I'm not special, I. I won't exist. Right. Or I shouldn't exist, or whatever. Exactly. 

Anna Vincentz: So, exactly.

So we keep running away from that wound, that core wound inside. But it, it's, it's still there. No matter how successful we are, you're never gonna go far enough. 'cause it's there until you heal it. 

John Clarke: Yep. Exactly. That's the invitation. That's the invitation we create as therapists. It's like, exactly how ready are you to stop running and actually turn, turn towards.

That's pretty scary, that little one. It's terrifying, right? Yeah. Because the other fear is if I do that and heal that part, um, I'll lose my edge. Right? Or I won't be. Competitive or successful or whatever. And I, I generally don't find that to be true at all when I help. No, but it's a big fear. It's a big fear.

Yeah. 

Anna Vincentz: Yeah, [00:11:00] yeah, yeah. Yeah. And that's the thing with inner attachment, that this is what I always say, that our, our attachment, their attachment to a parent, parents become. Or in our attachment. Yeah. So the parts of us that were not welcome, the reactions that were not welcome, they also don't get that secure attachment on the inside.

They don't feel safe on the inside, so they become alone and isolated and sometimes fight really hard. 

John Clarke: Mm-hmm. 

Anna Vincentz: So re beginning to create that inner our attachment is really what IFS does. 

John Clarke: Yeah. 

Anna Vincentz: Great. Yeah, 

John Clarke: The, the neurodivergence piece is really interesting and. It seems to be something in the zeitgeist of today that more and more people are talking about and learning about, and you hear of adults going, oh my gosh, I spent my whole life not knowing that I'm neurodivergent.

Or my brain works in this way. Right? And for some people it can be really tremendously helpful to understand this is the brain I've got and this is why, part of why I've always felt so different where I can't fit in or the school system [00:12:00] was. So difficult for me to navigate, even though I'm know I'm smart or capable or whatever.

Right? 

Anna Vincentz: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It wasn't built for, it wasn't built for us. When you're debating kids, and, and especially, I mean, I think there are things in the old ways it was done where everybody was kind of shut down and had to fit into a specific box, and the way it is today, at least here in Denmark, is that.

Much more broad. So there's a lot more space for differences, but at the same time, it's a lot less structured. So especially for kids with autism, it's actually often more unsafe because they, they don't know how to fit into that. 

John Clarke: Yep. 

Anna Vincentz: Yeah. So there's, there's good and good and bad in that, and it's really hard for us as a mother of neuro divergent kids, finding the right place for your kids.

School-wise, I've also been homeschooling. It's really difficult. Yeah, it really is. There's really no perfect fit. 

John Clarke: Right. 

Anna Vincentz: Yeah. 

John Clarke: And again, how can our kids not internalize that they're deeply aware of like, I'm [00:13:00] not fitting in here, or I'm being treated differently by the teacher, or people are frustrated with me, you know?

Um, yes. Yeah. I, I was one of these. Um, suppose still am one of these ADHD kids diagnosed as early as like early elementary school. You know, can't sit still, can't focus, right. Behavioral issues, the whole thing. Um, and I felt and picked up plenty of burdens by the teachers. The staff just frustrated that they couldn't get me to do what they needed me to do.

Right. Yeah. And also they're being evaluated by my test scores and I can't sit down long enough to do the test. Right. Nor don't care. Nor do, nor am I like, yeah, is this important to me in any way? No, I don't, I don't give a damn about this test. Right. And like, you're standardized test. Um, but there was also just such a lack of attunement and relationship in a lot of these learning environments, you know, where I didn't have the trust.

Of the teachers or the trust, the teachers didn't have my trust, [00:14:00] so it is like I don't really expect you to be willing to work with me. In fact, my sense is like. I'm the kid that creates extra work for the teacher, you know? Yeah. And they're already stressed out and overwhelmed and you know, burned out and underpaid.

Yes. That's the problem. 

Anna Vincentz: Right? That's the problem. 'cause otherwise it's actually quite a gift. They could learn so much from a kid like you, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the really important thing is to, for any kid, is really to have that secure attachment at home. When we don't have that at home, we don't have, 'cause that's the kind of protection, that's your safety with when you have that with your parents.

Yeah, we don't have, when you don't have that, then going out into school, going out into society is so much more wounding. We take on so much more. 

John Clarke: And yet parents often are parenting largely through our fears, right? Of my kid's gonna fall behind or not be successful or whatever. And so, you know, parents, we end up colluding with the teachers and the school counselors and the school [00:15:00] psychologists and everyone who are looking at this kid and going, um, yeah, he's, he's a problem child.

You know? 

Anna Vincentz: That can definitely happen. 

John Clarke: Yeah. 

Anna Vincentz: Yes. Yeah. 

John Clarke: Which is really, but it's a role to be that secure base. 

Anna Vincentz: Exactly, exactly. Yeah. And really difficult for parents because then yeah, you can get into lots of struggles with their school, depending on how they handle that. And then yeah, they, they're gonna blame the parent or they're gonna blame the kid.

That's kind of the typical way. 

John Clarke: Yeah. Right. 

Anna Vincentz: Exactly. Yeah. But that's a whole mess in itself, structure in itself, like a structural, uh, thing that just. Doesn't fit, doesn't work in so many ways. Also, just for, also, just for any kid, any family. That's a lot. That's the whole thing in most societies.

John Clarke: IFS is simple but not easy, on the surface, it's about parts and self. But when you're in the room with a client, things can get complex fast. Helping someone meet a protective part or wounded exile, that takes skill and most importantly, it takes safety. [00:16:00] My name is John Clarke, trauma therapist and IFS therapist, and in this free webinar for therapists and practitioners, we're gonna explore the subtleties that make IFS so powerful and how to navigate them with more clarity and confidence.

You're gonna learn why safety is everything and how to do it well. What trips therapists up when applying IFS in practice and a simple tool that you can begin using right away. If you want to go beyond theory and truly embody the work, then this is for you. Join the free webinar today. Link is in the description.

So, so tell me more about how you work with parents and tell me about your approach. 

Anna Vincentz: Yeah, so I mean, I usually, I'm, I work with parents. I work with couple as well. Um, and I also just work with. Uh, most of my clients are, are not necessarily parents, but people who had. Some kind of trauma in the childhood.

They, they're always, I don't, I haven't been advertising for anything with neuro divergent, but I realized that all my clients are [00:17:00] highly sensitive. They're all neuro divergent mode. A lot of them have have ADHD or ADD, but that's not why they come to therapy. Um, so it's something I realized later on that, that there's something and it makes sense 'cause I'm neuro divergent to, and I didn't realize that before.

Right? So there's something that they feel like I get them in a way. Um, that other people haven't necessarily gotten them, and I know a lot of people use, especially if they're new to IFS, that they will use the model very kind of rigidly sometimes, right? Or from a very cognitive place instead of actually being with the clients where they are allowing them to go in and out of where they need to be to feel safe in.

Based and being understood, even though they can go in all these different directions. 'cause, 'cause our brains do that sometimes and there's always a reason for it. Sometimes it's to regulate your nervous system while you're there. But other times, even though you can jump into all this different stuff, it actually, there is a red line in it.

But some, some neurotypical brains can't really keep up with it. So there's a, yeah, there's a [00:18:00] lot in that. And being with the trauma and the pain of having felt like I've been told I was too much or not enough and not good enough. All these kind of things, just creating a safe space for that. Yeah. And, um, so my, my approach is I use, I mean, I use IFS mm-hmm.

Um, as, as a model. But I use it in what, whatever way it fits with the client. 'cause some clients need to talk for 200 hours about the surface level, level before they're willing or ready to go into it. And, and that's not my job to force 'em somewhere. It's my job to be with them and to offer Yeah. What they need.

John Clarke: You know, let, let's talk about that some more. 'cause that, that's huge and actually comes up a lot. Um, you know, I, I help teach IFS at Stepping Stones and, um. Also in my group practice, it's a teaching practice and a lot there, a lot of folks, and especially newer clinicians or even just experienced clinicians, new to IFS, they come and they're like, [00:19:00] I can't get my client to go deeper.

I can't get them to unblend. I can't get past the protectors, quote unquote. Yes, there's a lot of this energy of like clients just coming in and talking, right, and talking and talking and talking and like we're not doing IFS or they're not letting me. Help them. Right. You know, and there's all this stuff that comes up of just like, I'm banging on the door being like, let me come in and do this cool IFS stuff and un unburden, you know, 17 parts today.

Sure. Um, and it's got, it's got a real particular energy to it. Right. And the client can feel that too, which is like, yes, you're trying to get me to change or I, I can tell I'm not doing therapy. Right. You know, information. Exactly. A lot of people feel that 

Anna Vincentz: I'm doing it wrong. Yeah. 

John Clarke: Yeah. Yeah. 

Anna Vincentz: And they often have that burden.

A lot of people have that coming into therapy and then being met by a part of the therapist who's doing therapy, who's trying to do IFS. Yeah. And that's a really important thing. We're not, we don't do IFS, we learn IFS and then we are here. We, you could [00:20:00] say we're being IFS if you wanted to say it like that.

'cause it's a human view. It's a very, a way of understanding and meeting ourselves and the other person. 

John Clarke: Yeah. 

Anna Vincentz: Right. So you need to have all your learning kind of behind you. You have to know it and understand it, and, and be right here with the other person, with the knowledge, with the understanding that this makes sense.

And, and there's something here that needs connection. And we don't get past protectors. We connect with protectors. Right. So the for a reason and they're important. 

John Clarke: Yeah. I, I had a client who, um, and I used this as an example, you know, in teaching at my practice who came and was very much in this same story, uh.

Every single week ad nauseum for probably nine months. Right. And again, on one hand you can be like, okay, he's, uh, not deepening. Or if you're really old school, it's like he's being resistant or hesitant or whatever. Right. Um, but what I, my sense that I made of it and just honoring the, the. Functionality of his [00:21:00] system was, there's something here that still needs to be witnessed.

There's something here that hasn't been fully witnessed by me. 

Anna Vincentz: Mm-hmm. 

John Clarke: Um, and therefore the work is not progressing in a way that some parts of me may like it to. Right. Be because I know IFS could really help him. Right. But there's this circling, it's happening and this witnessing of, um. I just haven't witnessed it enough yet.

Right. It hasn't been witnessed sufficiently. Yeah. And so that is a very clear message, right? The, the door is always open to go deeper or get to know that part versus just talking about that part again this week. Right? Yeah. Interestingly, he would also, he really knew the model, um, but for nine months he would go home and kind of do IFS and then come back and just tell me about it.

Yeah. 

Anna Vincentz: Yeah, that's a very normal too. It's a really 

John Clarke: interesting way of like keeping me on the periphery slightly of like, I'm doing this work and then I'm just updating you about it. Yes. It's a lot safer. It's a lot safer. Right. This would be very hard for a lot of clinicians. Right. It's like, why? Why won't you let me be the one to do it?[00:22:00] 

You know? Yes. Um, yes. Yeah. 

Anna Vincentz: Yeah. I have people, I have, uh, all the clinic clinicians in, in supervision and, um, consultation as well. And there's often the frustration like, why aren't we getting anywhere? And I, and my parts as the therapist, um, get, feel like there's something wrong with me. I'm not doing it right now because I'm not getting my, my client where they, where I'm, where I feel like they should go.

Right. So like I, I'm sure, I'm sure you say this too, that when. When something is stuck, it's always a part. And very often it's the therapist part, not the client's part. So we always need to check if there's any urgency in inside of us. Any frustration, anywhere we wanna go, that's a part. 

John Clarke: Yeah. Yeah. I need you to unblend, right?

Um, the energy is like, imagine you have ever been in a conversation in your life. Let's say it's about something like politics or religion, and you can instantly feel someone is trying to change your mind about something. Yeah. [00:23:00] Right? Or maybe they're talking about school or I, I don't know, anything. Um, you know, what food is the best, like, like whether a restaurant is good or not.

Um, that energy that you can feel when someone is trying to change you. Is a real particular energy that can kind of feel like this, even though it's like, well, but the client is, they're coming to session and they've hired me as their therapist and they're paying me all this money. So I certainly can't just sit there.

Ah, but my fear is parts can parts sense and experience it like you're trying to change me. And the paradox is like, well. Aren't you here to change? It's like, yes, I'm here to get where I'm going to heal and grow, but that has to be in connection. The paradox is when I communicate in my self energy that nothing has to happen here today.

Things start to happen. Right, exactly. Next paradox. So for therapist, especially neuro IFS. If you can connect with that sense of nothing needs to happen here today and, and commun, communicate that to clients verbally and otherwise, [00:24:00] things start to shift, right? Or we just get really curious and parts kind of peek their heads out and they go, oh, maybe I'll tell a little more of this story today.

Or maybe I'll be a little more embodied in it, or maybe I'll voice of fear or whatever it is. Um, and then we can be curious about that and kind of massage those moments a bit more. But, um. Absolutely can't force 'em, whether it takes nine sessions or nine months, you know? 

Anna Vincentz: Exactly. And even just being in that space that you can be here exactly the way you are.

John Clarke: Yeah. 

Anna Vincentz: Right now I'm not, I'm just here to be here with you. That's very healing in itself. We don't have, we don't get that in many places. No. Yeah. 

John Clarke: No. We're starved for it. Kids and teenagers are starved for it. You know, I, the teenagers I work with, um, I let them know like. There's all these adults out there in your life that have an agenda for you and need you to be a certain way and be at soccer practice on time and, you know, make these grades or whatever.

And it's like, I don't want to be another adult in here. Like, you need to do therapy a certain way. You need to open up, you need to [00:25:00] cry, right? You need to tell me about the cutting, whatever it is. Yeah. You know? Um, so just being a person with no agenda with them is so, such a corrective experience, you know, to be in that resonance.

Yes. So usually we're getting pressure from the parents to like fix them, change them, tell them to stop cutting. Fix my kid. Stop vaping. Yeah, right? Like they're playing too many video games, whatever it is. It's like I get that. And that's comes from a place of fear, right? It does. If my kid does plays video games too much, he's gonna become violent or not do his schoolwork and then he'll be a failure or like not get into college.

Like I get that. Yeah. Yeah. Also your parenting can't be led by that all the time. No. Just creates, exactly, yeah. Discord. 

Anna Vincentz: And that's the thing with, with healing. Oh, I mean, if we take it with trauma that the most traumatic thing in trauma is being alone with it. Not being seen, it not being witnessed by somebody safe.

And the most healing experience, which is also what's most [00:26:00] healing in IFS if you ask me, is being seen, being witnessed, being with, then it starts to melt. Right. So even just, um, I remember this example with, with a suicidal teenager who, who kept like, I think she was starving herself and everybody was trying to get her to change, to change or to eat or to do something and really pushing for it, you know?

'cause they were really scared and she was, it was going really badly. And then somebody came and just sat there and had no agenda and didn't tell her to stay alive. Didn't just listened to her. 

John Clarke: Yeah. 

Anna Vincentz: And then she started eating. 

John Clarke: Yeah. 

Anna Vincentz: Yeah. 

John Clarke: That's, that's . 

Anna Vincentz: It's, it's, so, it's really scary. It can be really scary to just do that, of course.

But just that is the most important thing to do or be Yeah. Just be there. 

John Clarke: Yeah. But the, these are our fears, right? And so much of therapy and just parenting and teaching and all this is, is, uh, we are very blended with these parts that, that hold fears, right? Yeah. Before we try to [00:27:00] like change anything, quote unquote.

I, you know, we have, I work with therapists in my, my program, it's called Pathways to Self, and it's, we, we do weekly consultation and, um, it's like, how do I get my client to stop dissociating, right? So the question I ask with everything that comes up in group is, what could be good about X? Like, what could be good about dissociating?

Right. Exactly. Until we, we position there with it and go, what could be good about not eating? Right. And really understand from that part's perspective what could be good about it. Nothing is gonna change. Right. There's often very good reason and very good historical reason for why I'm doing it and why I started doing it.

Yes. At a very difficult, painful time. That's, and my fears around not doing it now, right? Yes. So, 

Anna Vincentz: so it always makes sense. This is one of my most important messages. Yeah, it always makes sense. Even when you don't, we don't get it. Or even when we think the behavior is so horrible to myself, to other [00:28:00] people, to other kids, it always makes sense.

So we need to be curious. We need to see what makes sense about what's going on, what's the solution to, right. 'cause there's always something underlying it. Yeah, just, I mean, it's just like no bad parts, right? There's always something loving underneath. Even when we can't see it, sometimes we can't see it inside of ourselves either.

That's why beginning to get curious from, not from our our heads stills, but actually from our hearts, from, from just being there. It's gonna reveal itself when it's ready, when it's safe enough. 'cause there's, it always makes sense. 

John Clarke: Well, there, there's a lot of operating kind of from our heads and a lot of our clients come in in that kind of heady energy.

Like there's something to figure out here. Like I'm kind of like. If I can just understand, you know, this thing or like, you know, my mom was mean to me and now I'm mean to myself. Right? It's like, okay, great. Like you've got that and it's like all my clients are very bright, so I. [00:29:00] If you could just figure it out.

Right, and kind of like analyze your way to healing, you would've done it by now. Right? Exactly. So it has to be about something else. It has to be about something different. So my invitation is like, would you be willing, willing to try it a different way, which is more from the heart and more about this being with, um, and let's just see if that works.

Right? Because they think this therapy is so much less about figuring stuff out, right? Yeah. And trying to arrive to some epic insight. Right. Yes. 

Anna Vincentz: Yes. And I think sometimes we also need to actually go with those smart hats, especially also with neuro kids. There's all people, there's often a very, um, very strong head pros.

They're very much keeping us safe. Right? Yeah. And have, and have kept us also, like you said, with success. They have really helped us so much and sometimes they can really help us when we can. Stay with them. Sometimes they, they can sit on the side and eat popcorn or something and listen in. Yeah. But they can be really, really helpful.

So really inviting, [00:30:00] inviting that into the session, but connecting it to the heart as well. Connecting it to being into feeling. So it's not only that, um, can, can really also take away a lot of the shame that can really, I think, I think I see that a lot in IFS too, that there can be a lot of, um, shame coming in.

We just asked parts, for instance, to step aside or absolutely wanting to keep going, right? Yeah. So, so I think that can really helping that, creating that team, like all these parts are so good. They kept you safe. It, they kept you alive. But that, like you're saying, they didn't figure it out. 

John Clarke: Yeah. 

Anna Vincentz: Right.

Because there's something else here. There's a knowing inside that they actually can end up blocking because they're figuring it out. You have the answers. 

John Clarke: Totally. 

Anna Vincentz: Yeah. 

John Clarke: There's this, this, you know, I tend to get into the technical weeds a bit, maybe too much on the show, but, um, you know, the practitioners will [00:31:00] appreciate this.

Maybe therapy consumers listening will also appreciate it. But this, this thing that is taught in various ways and situations of like. Protector part blends, ask it to unblend, like ask it to step aside. Like this part is in the way now. Um, there's a lot of that energy, right? Which is in a way, can be so disrespectful, right?

Yes. It's like the dissociative part. Ask it to step aside, ask it to unblend, ask it to hang out in the other room. Um, a lot of therapists that are doing that the first time they've ever met this dissociative part, and it's like. Imagine doing a job for the past 30 years and it's actually been working and someone comes in and bulldozes you and goes, okay, step aside, I'm here now.

Right. Your services are longer related. 

Anna Vincentz: No way. No way. They're gonna do that. 

John Clarke: Yeah. I hope they don't do that. And why? They get protector backlash. What? And whatnot. Right. Or it's like, let's see if you can stop drinking for a week and see what happens. It's like. That might go, okay, that might go very poorly, right?[00:32:00] 

Yes, yes. You know, because we, we, we, we don't know how much that part was holding up over here. That's like kicking out one leg of the three-legged stool. Right. And the whole thing might collapse. We just don't know. Yeah. But the sense of like. Parts are kind of a problem or they're in the way, like that, that ethos is still really out there and I see a lot of therapists being like, okay, ask it.

Ask it to step aside. 

Anna Vincentz: Yeah. The model too, if you really go, just go through it. Right? That's one of things. Straight line. 

John Clarke: Yeah. 

Anna Vincentz: By the book, but yeah, but there, but all parts in a protected parts are really keeping us safe. Keep they're keeping us alive. They might do it in a way, ways that don't work anymore, right?

They might do it from a childhood type of place, but they have been keeping us alive. So if the drinking part step aside, there might be a suicidal part over here that needs to take up, uh, yeah. Take up instead, you know, yeah, this, this, we really wanna respect the system and we really wanna. I mean, I, I forgot who this comes from, one of the late trainers, but helping, asking the clients [00:33:00] to, to create a circle when that feels right for the system.

'cause all systems are different, of course. 

John Clarke: Mm-hmm. 

Anna Vincentz: But being our team, like really respecting them, asking their advice, even as like having them be here and help us and hold the space and have their self energy be part of the space. 

John Clarke: Mm-hmm. 

Anna Vincentz: Yeah. It can be so helpful and so healing because they need so much respect.

Right. No matter what there is, that doesn't work anymore. 'cause it did work. It did help at some point. Yep. And they're helping parts and that are still inside. Yeah. So, so saying, oh, that's in the past, you know, it's different now you're older now. That doesn't always help at all because the pain is still there.

John Clarke: That's right. 

Anna Vincentz: Yeah. In the present, even though it's from the past. 

John Clarke: Yeah. 

Anna Vincentz: Yeah. 

John Clarke: Yeah, it, uh, you know, really early on I went to this, um, this like intensive training with Frank Anderson in Arizona. He must have said it 20 times that weekend where he was basically like, go slower than you [00:34:00] think you should go.

You know, therapists are going way too fast with this stuff, and I think it's true. Right? And I think when you look at like, um, a one pager about how to do IFS, like there, there's a lot of inclination to just click through it right? And kind of get somewhere and try to get to the exile. Um, especially I find that the higher degree of trauma that's in the system, you need to go even slower.

Yes. Try even more lightly. Right? It's like what could be good about dissociating? Or you try to get a client too in their, in their body. Right? If there was a time in which being in your body was extremely dangerous Yes. Right? Then it's like, I'm kind of asking you to like, literally put your hand on a hot stove.

Just hold it there. Like that's, that's there, right? So Yes. 

Anna Vincentz: Yeah. Yes. And really, really understanding that. And most, and most of us. Have that kind of pain inside of us. Yeah. In some way or another. So when, this is why it's important to do our own work too. Right. One of the reasons that we actually know this place is inside and we know how [00:35:00] slow it needs to go and how many times, you know, we need to talk so many times would be so many times with the same thing, because we're getting slowly closer and closer.

John Clarke: Yeah. 

Anna Vincentz: To the pain. 

John Clarke: That's right. Yeah. 

Anna Vincentz: Yeah. 

John Clarke: It brings up so much for us, you know? What is it like to bear witness to suffering? Right? What is it like to bear witness to someone who's bleeding and won't let you help them stop the bleed? Right? Yeah. Or someone just going, I'm just, I'm showing you the cuts on my wrist, but that's it.

Nothing more than that, right? Yes. It brings, and that is amazing. Yeah. 

Anna Vincentz: Yes. People really need to do their own work on this so they can just be right there because be being allowed to witness that, that's, that's, I mean, that's really an offering. To being allowed to, I mean, people sometimes say, how can you be a therapist?

You know, you hear all these horrible stories like, how can you, and you take this with you into life, like, it must be horrible to have your job, but we actually get to be with people in the most vulnerable and the most beautiful [00:36:00] places, and where they also have the most shame. Yeah. But there's, there's nothing ugly there.

There's pain and there's beauty. And the fact that we get to be there with them, that maybe even their partners, their parents never got to see. Yep. That's amazing. 

John Clarke: Yeah. 

Anna Vincentz: Yeah. 

John Clarke: I think it is. It's, it's so undervalued and. There's so much that comes up for us in terms of like, how am I not doing enough? Right?

Or if the client like shows me the cuts on their wrist, it's like, I should do something about it. I should get them to stop cutting. Right. Or their parents are telling me, get my kid to stop cutting. Whatever it is. Right? It's just that's coming in from all angles. 

Anna Vincentz: Mm-hmm. 

John Clarke: Right. But what a profound moment it could be that a client is like, this is how much pain I'm in.

Right? Yeah. I'm seeing, I'm witnessing. How much pain you're in and letting that be enough. Like this idea of letting it be enough is something I bring to the therapist a lot. Or another word, like the way to flip that is, [00:37:00] um, notice for your, your system how just holding that and like witnessing that feels like it's not enough.

I need to do more. Yeah. Or I need to stop the cutting. Right. Which it could really be for you and your system. 

Anna Vincentz: Yeah. Yeah. 'cause you cannot actually stop the cutting. Only the person themself can do that. 

And they're gonna do that when it's not necessary to cut anymore. 

John Clarke: That's right. 

Anna Vincentz: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

John Clarke: And they can feel the energy of, I need you to stop cutting.

Right. 

Anna Vincentz: Exactly. 

John Clarke: It's really subtle. They can feel that. 

Anna Vincentz: Exactly. 

John Clarke: Feel bad, 

Anna Vincentz: and then 

they're not gonna show you again. Right. It's the same with suicidal parts. Often they're not welcome. People freak out, therapists freak out when this is suicidal part. But actually just being there, like just be witnessing.

That is so healing. 

John Clarke: Yep. 

Anna Vincentz: Welcoming. That part is there for a really good reason. 

John Clarke: I, I remember, um, yeah, I had CeCe Sykes on this show like the beginning of when I started this show and we talked about this and firefighters and, um, how it just brings up so much for therapists right? [00:38:00] Around clients who, um, have substance abuse stuff or their fear of a client relapsing or whatever it is.

And, um, it, it's why a lot of therapists just don't even touch it. Right? Yeah. Um, when you really get to know these parts and they go, well, when things get too much, I do this. I drink, I dissociate, um, or I'm a suicidal part, or whatever. Like, if things were so, so bad, you know, I would shut the lights off.

It's like, okay, what could, what could be good about that? Right. I preserve the system, you know? Yeah. You know? And to what degree do you feel like you need to do your job right now? Yeah. You know, how bad are things from your perspective? Right. And just gathering information, get, get really getting curious about that.

Anna Vincentz: Yeah, exactly. And knowing that when there's such a big, strong part, then the pain of the exile will be just as strong. Otherwise it wouldn't be Right. 

John Clarke: Yeah. Yeah. Very proportionate. Always makes sense to that. [00:39:00] Yeah. Yeah. Always makes sense. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, 

Anna Vincentz: yeah. 

John Clarke: Well, we've got, yeah, a little, little bit of time left, maybe five minutes or so.

What do you feel like is missing from this conversation so far? Or just what, what else is kind of important to your world and, and your work in this realm? 

Anna Vincentz: Yeah. Well we did say we were gonna talk about parenting, but we were talking more about therapy. Yeah. There. Exactly, and it's so important. And so it's so important.

And that's the thing with, uh, if we go really quickly towards the, the kind of, um, new Danish parenting principles that I made, that these principles are really important both for, uh, like you said in the beginning too. It's both for parenting, but it's also for self-development, for understanding ourselves and for therapists, for working with clients because they talk about, um.

I'm gonna talk about them really fast now. Sure. When the first part is about children always make sense. And if we talked about this [00:40:00] principle from a therapist perspective, it would both be learning about how attachment and relationships, uh, form, form for childhood, but also that part always makes sense.

What's going on on the inside always makes sense. Um, and learning how, how we are born competent. We're born social. We're born to interact. Into this world and, and to be met into this world, we born with an expectation to be met and then whatever meets us and dozen meters creates a lot of pain, a lot of trauma in our system.

John Clarke: Mm-hmm. 

Anna Vincentz: Right? So there's a lot of shotgun, there's a lot of cooperating away from ourselves, away from what we actually need to fit in with our parents. Um, and then our apart take this on, of course. So it happens in the relationship and it happens in society, and it happens on the inside as well. 

John Clarke: Mm-hmm.

Anna Vincentz: And then helping. Translate what is happening with a child or what is happening with the parts on the inside? Why are they reacting the way [00:41:00] they are? Instead of saying, oh, you hit the other kid, or something, that's bad, we need to punish you for that. But there's actually a reason that this happened. You know, there's always a reaction.

There's a, no matter what it is, there's a reason it's happening. This is, again, was for children and, and on on the inside with our parts. And just, this is what we already said. Actually, the next part of this first principle is meet children where they are, not where you want them to go. This is exactly what it's like on the inside as well.

We need to meet our parts ourselves, our clients, and our children where we are. This, this is from the place movement happens. If you meet them over there, over there where they're not, they're gonna be stuck. We're gonna be stuck. Right? Yeah. Because they're right where they are. Just be right there. Yeah.

John Clarke: That's beautiful. 

Anna Vincentz: Very simple. Very simple. But it's so difficult for us to do it. 

John Clarke: Well, we've forgotten what that means. 

Anna Vincentz: Yes, 

John Clarke: yes. You know, we, we really have. Um, so I love the simplicity of that, you know? I've done martial [00:42:00] arts my whole life and my Muay Thai instructor used to say simple, but not easy. Simple but not easy.

Exactly. Because he's teaching us, like I say that too. A single punch, you know? Yeah. And this is like that too, you know? Yes. For, for therapists to actually do it and do it as consistently as we can and really embody it, um, it's really hard. 'cause again it did, it doesn't feel like enough. 

Anna Vincentz: Yeah. They're really big with our own parts in that.

Right? It's so healing both for ourselves and for our clients. 

John Clarke: That's right. 

Anna Vincentz: So important. Um, so that was the first principle, then that's the next one that's about relationships. Um, and, and this, it, it goes into a lot of things, but one thing is that, that children, and, and this goes for parts too, of course.

Children are parents or children or adults. We are equal in worth. We have the same voice. We're not equal in power. We're not equal in experience. So that's why one is the caretaker takes care of the other one. And when this is what Gordon New thought, who talks about attachment, [00:43:00] he talks about that when we become shut off from our hearts 

John Clarke: mm-hmm.

Anna Vincentz: We become the bully. This is what you talked about with your teachers as well, right? We become the bully instead of the caretaker. The one who has power over is supposed to take care of the other ones, and they're supposed to be able to lean into that. That will be the safe attachment. Then we can lean in on the inside too and feel safe, right?

John Clarke: Mm-hmm. 

Anna Vincentz: And often doesn't happen. So in, in, in New Danish parent, and we talk about how also to do these things, how to be in the relationship. So there's a part about boundaries. So we wanna set boundaries. Not around the child, the child not telling them who to be, but telling who we are. So that's again, when there's a boundary, they can feel us.

John Clarke: Mm-hmm. 

Anna Vincentz: They know who we are and what's okay and not okay for, for us. So who can we be here together? Getting to know each other like that and, and understanding that when we hurt our children. Even if we do it from fear, from [00:44:00] love, or from all these things, they don't. They don't stop loving us. They need us.

They need other people, but they stop loving themselves. They stop loving parts of themselves and that gets shot down. That becomes our exiles. Right. And, and all what should have been anger on the outside towards what wasn't. Okay. Becomes anger or self hate. Self hate on the inside. That needs a lot of healing then later.

John Clarke: Mm-hmm. 

Anna Vincentz: Um, and then I have the, the last principle, which is about the, the parent. So it's about the parent being responsible for the relationship. This is, uh, like this is something most parents do and also just people do it in teaching, in schools and all these things, is that we give the responsibility.

To the child, this, and, and they take it in. Even if we don't give it explicitly, they feel like there's something wrong with me. This is also how they feel safe and make sense in the world. When my parents are not safe, it must be my fault. And we also use, in our language, we say it's so many things. We show so many things that this, you are the problem.

There's [00:45:00] something wrong with you. So our children are carrying so much. This is what therapists do too. They carry when, when somebody brings the pain, then they end up carrying all the pain, so they don't wanna be with it. Right. So learning that's about boundaries too. Of course. Learning to hold our, I know I'm saying a lot really fast right now.

Great. I'm, but really learning to be with what is ours, just like in relationships, right? We keep blaming the other person, where's something wrong? There's something wrong with you, or there's something wrong with me. So there need to be something wrong with you because I don't wanna feel anything wrong with me.

Yeah. But when we can hold ourselves, hold our own, and we learn that as children. When our parents take responsibility, when they can carry the relationships. 'cause they're, they're responsible. Even if the, the kid is doing something that's not okay, the parents are still responsible and need to be able to carry that.

So there's space for the child to learn to do something else. 

John Clarke: Mm-hmm. 

Anna Vincentz: Um, and then it's about personal leadership, being yourself in the relationship instead of in the relationship. Instead of being [00:46:00] a parent, as a role, a teacher, as a role. Kids don't accept this anymore anyway. It's not really possible anymore.

They're, they're fighting it a lot because they wanna feel who you want. 

John Clarke: Mm-hmm. 

Anna Vincentz: Right. So, so respect is not something you have because you're president. Respect is something you earn because of how you show up. Right? Or don't earn. That's really important too. And, and really learning that for, for ourselves to do that.

And again, it's in our language and it's all these different ways that we learn to not do it. Mm. And then the last part is really becoming conscious on the inside, learning about your parts. It can be IFS is just one way. It's really good way. I think it's very. So many people really benefited and it really fits with the system.

John Clarke: Mm-hmm. 

Anna Vincentz: But of course, there's so many different ways to, to work on self-development and getting to know yourself and the insect, getting to know your triggers so you don't, you don't keep passing them on because we do that, we, our parents did that, their parents did that. And there's so much running down the stream to our kids, unless we actually heal it [00:47:00] and begin to change it.

John Clarke: Yeah. 

Anna Vincentz: There was a lot of words. Sorry. 

John Clarke: I love it. That's gonna be a good clip right there in itself. Just like the model, blah, blah, blah, blah, in a, in a breath. Um, I love it. I mean, this is, uh, these principles are profound. Again, they're simple, but they're really profound and they're hard to do, hard to do consistently, but I like how.

You've distilled down into these core principles. 'cause uh, yeah, it just gives parents a framework for what I'm trying to do here. Right? Yeah. Um, and I like how the model's also very flexible. There's a lot within it of how to do it or do it your way and the personhood of the parent, you know? Exactly.

There's so much parenting that, and we, we slide into these authoritarian. Roles of like, I'm up here, you're down here. Right. Like a good kid is like a compliant kid. Right. And you can never get, you know, um, I can never like ease up on my power or whatever. Right. Or if I say that because of fear. Right. For my kids.

[00:48:00] Because of fear. Yeah. Yeah. Right. 

Anna Vincentz: And the kids take that in so much. I disobey my parents, so I was bad. I was wrong. It was my fault. I hear this all the time. 

John Clarke: Yeah. Yeah. It's a constant power struggle. Right. And a lot of what brings parents to therapy is. If they're in these power struggles. Yes. Right? Yes. Um.

Yeah, I mean, we probably should have started with this, but this just means maybe we'll have to do a, a follow up episode. Sure. We can do that. Mostly my fault for taking this on a, you know, Vitor into self-like parts and therapist parts and whatever.

Anna Vincentz: But, but it's all interesting, right? And, and yeah, there's a lot.

Um, I'm, I'm doing a program on this. It's gonna be free for parents. I'm real, I should have finished it already, but so many things happened, so I'm really slow with it. And I'm gonna write a book about it too. I also have some, I have some stuff about it. I love it. So going into really the details and how people can use it, because like you're saying, everybody's different.

It, it's, and even the language for it is different. So it's, it's just like IFS, it's not something to fit yourself into. It's something you can use, [00:49:00] however it works for you, and get to know yourself, your children, your partner through this. 

John Clarke: Yeah. I love it. Well, I can't wait to read that book. And, um, in, in the meantime, and we will have to do part two of this, this will be, this will be great.

Um, in the meantime, how can people learn more about, um, yeah, the model and your work and, and just how to benefit from, uh, this stuff. 

Anna Vincentz: Yeah, I mean, so, um, I'm most active on, on Instagram, so you can read lots of stuff there. It's called IFS Therapy and of Incense, my English one. Um, and then I have on my website, I have a bunch of stuff.

I have info about new Danish parenting and how to find that. I have a podcast called Parenting From the Inside and it's. This, I, I, I am really slow with that too. So there's gonna be more episodes soon. That's not that many, but that, that goes into new Danish parenting as well. And then I write articles that are both on medium and on my website that there's lots of stuff for IFS clients, people who are [00:50:00] new to IFS, learning about the nervous system, learning about parenting attachment, many things.

Um, yeah. 

John Clarke: I love it. You have a lot. Um, yeah. A lot of irons in the fire, but they're all kind of converging with this. Model if it fits together. Even the model if fits together. Yeah, exactly. It's like actually very cohesive. Um, so I love it. Yeah, I mean, distilling something as complex as parenting down is, is very difficult to do.

And to principles that people can grasp and try to actually live out with their kids or try this week, um, to, to play out one of these principles or embody one of them more. So it's, it's great. Yeah. Um, well, we'll put links to everything in the description and show notes here, Anna, but, um. Yeah. In the meantime, we'd love to have you back some time to keep building on this and Sure.

Um, hear even more about the model. So thank you again for doing this and um, yeah, by all means, keep in touch. 

Anna Vincentz: Let's do that. Thank you for having me. 

John Clarke: Thanks again.

 Thanks for listening to [00:51:00] another episode of Going Inside. If you enjoyed this episode, please like and subscribe wherever you're listening or watching, and share your favorite episode with a friend. You can follow me on Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok at johnclarketherapy and apply to work with me one-on-one at johnclarketherapy.com.

See you next time.

John Clarke
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Integrating IFS & EMDR for Trauma Recovery with Daphne Fatter