IFS, Energy Work, and Ancestral Healing with Seth Kopald
IFS, Energy Work, and Ancestral Healing with Seth Kopald
In this expansive and heartfelt conversation, John Clarke sits down again with IFS practitioner and mystically-inclined guide Seth Kopald. What begins as a discussion of Internal Family Systems quickly evolves into something deeper — an exploration of the energetic, ancestral, and spiritual forces that shape who we are. From mystical downloads to subtle energy shifts, Seth shares how he blends IFS with reiki, intuitive knowing, and ancestral connection to help clients heal in multidimensional ways. If you've ever sensed there's "more" going on in a session — or in yourself — this one’s for you.
Key Takeaways:
🌱What happens when healing moves beyond the clinical — And why staying curious might unlock more than you expect.
🌱The invisible weight you might be carrying — How ancestral legacies and cultural patterns live in your body until you learn to let them go.
🌱You’re not imagining it — The energetic connection between practitioner and client is real, and it’s changing how we do therapy.
👤 Guest: Seth Kopald
Seth Kopald is a certified, Level 3 Internal Family Systems (IFS) Practitioner with a PhD in Organization Management and a Masters in Education. He’s assisted IFS trainings at all levels, facilitated retreats with Dick Schwartz, and leads his own immersive healing experiences. Seth blends traditional IFS with reiki, Akashic Records, and ancestral healing to help others reconnect with their deeper knowing. He is also the author of Self-Led.
Contact & Socials:
seth@sethkopald.com
sethkopald.com
Instagram: @selfled_by_seth
Facebook: @seth.kopald.ifs
📚 Resources & Offerings:
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TRANSCRIPT
[00:00:00] Seth Kopald: And what I think, the way I've thought about it recently is IFS is tapping into things that humans have been using for healing for thousands, maybe millions of years.
[00:00:15] John Clarke: Going Inside is a podcast on a mission to help people heal from trauma and reconnect with their authentic self. Join me trauma therapist John Clarke for guest interviews, real life therapy sessions, and soothing guided meditations. Whether you're navigating your own trauma, helping others heal from trauma, or simply yearning for a deeper understanding of yourself, going inside is your companion on the path to healing and self-discovery.
[00:00:39] John Clarke: Download free guided meditations and apply to work with me one-on-one at johnclarketherapy.com. Thanks for being here. Let's dive in.
[00:00:47] John Clarke: I'm excited to reintroduce my guest his second time on the show. Seth Copal is a certified level three IFS practitioner. He holds a PhD in organization management with a specialization in [00:01:00] leadership and a master's in education. Seth is an experienced IFS training program assistant for levels one, two, and three.
[00:01:06] John Clarke: He's also been on Dick Schwartz's staff for multiple retreats, and Seth facilitates his own retreats and workshops. Seth is also the author of the book, Self-Led. Seth, thank you for coming back. What's going on in your world these days?
[00:01:21] Seth Kopald: Yeah. Hi John. It's good to see you. Wow, what's going on in my world?
[00:01:25] Seth Kopald: Personally, I've been diving into woodworking, traditional woodworking, so I've been building a workbench.
[00:01:30] John Clarke: Love it,
[00:01:31] Seth Kopald: For all traditional hand tools, which is a very more intimate relationship with wood. Like really understanding the grain and how does wood wanna be worked and not a lot of patience, a lot more quiet.
[00:01:43] John Clarke: Yeah.
[00:01:44] Seth Kopald: So that's been a passion. And in my work I've been doing a bunch of podcasts. I've been doing some training actually recently some of my go folks asked me to do what IFS training with them recently, and I brought in how do we work with couples from an IFS lens and [00:02:00] some IFIO.
[00:02:02] Seth Kopald: Stuff. And and a lot of my work I've I have dipped into the mystical land. Right now I'm so a consultant for doing a KIC records reading and I've also at the Learned reiki and I'm at that master level of reiki. And I feel like it's really helped my Fs work and the work I do with people.
[00:02:22] Seth Kopald: And it's made me even a more intuitive practitioner, as I'm with people, I. It was a lot more sensing of other people's systems than I was able to do prior to some of that other work I've been doing.
[00:02:34] John Clarke: Yeah. Let's keep building on that. One question I have for you is why do you think it is that IFS pairs so well with the spiritual, energetic, mystical sides of life and yeah.
[00:02:45] John Clarke: How is that all coming together in your evolution as a practitioner? A person?
[00:02:50] Seth Kopald: One thing I will say is. I think one of the most beautiful things my therapist ever said to me was like, there's the clinical side IFS and there's the mystical [00:03:00] side, and Seth, I see you on the mystical side, which, because I was trying to fit myself over here and it wasn't completely working and
[00:03:08] John Clarke: yeah.
[00:03:08] Seth Kopald: And so that really gave me some opening. And what I think, the way I've thought about it recently is IFS is tapping into. Things that humans have been using for healing for thousands, maybe millions of years. Indigenous cultures, go inside and go to parts, have guides, have unburdening, and I think IFS essentially codified it in a way for Westerners to make sense of it.
[00:03:41] Yeah.
[00:03:42] Seth Kopald: And I, and what I noticed for myself. Is that IFS is like a door, like a road. If we stay on the road, it could still feel very western clinical. We don't need to go into the mystical at all. But if you stay on that road long enough, something [00:04:00] starts. Almost everyone starts noticing something opens up.
[00:04:03] Seth Kopald: These things are happening in people's systems. Things that people are seeing ancestors or people are seeing guides or working with uvs or or the synchronicities that like what is actually happening here. And what I notice is once we get into that realm. Like I was very much like IFS is the only way, like if I have IFS, I don't need anything else.
[00:04:28] Seth Kopald: And
[00:04:29] John Clarke: yeah,
[00:04:29] Seth Kopald: and even though I wasn't thinking other things were bad, but I was like, I don't really need anything else, but since I've seen you last, I've definitely got more into somatics and other things where oh, there's this body that also holds burdens and energies that might not necessarily be tied to a particular part.
[00:04:48] Seth Kopald: And. Even back in the day before I found all this out, I, with legacy material, I'd often say, okay, now that the part has released this, let's just check your whole body. Is it lingering? So I had an [00:05:00] intuitive sense, but now with this work I've been doing, I'm noticing like sometimes we just need to breathe it out or shake it out or dance it out, or move it out or use reiki or ask, even through Akashic records, we could ask the record keepers to help clear.
[00:05:16] Seth Kopald: Something out or,
[00:05:18] John Clarke: yeah.
[00:05:18] Seth Kopald: So for me it, I feel like IFS and as people know, was given to Dick through a spiritual experience. It just lends itself naturally to the way humans, I think, naturally could heal. Yeah.
[00:05:36] John Clarke: Yeah, I have to say it's one of the things I love the most about it because as a psychotherapist, and coming from this clinical medical model it's for me it's been the missing piece that I didn't know I.
[00:05:48] John Clarke: I needed. And a lot of therapists think how do I incorporate quote, spirituality into their practice? If you're someone like me a guy who grew up going to church in the South, then [00:06:00] that would mean like having your clients talk about their faith. Or their Christianity or their whatever.
[00:06:04] John Clarke: Now I've been in California now for most of my working life. And so one of the blessings of that is. I meet lots of different people with lots of different ideas and inspirations and bob Falconer has been on this show a bunch of times, lives 25 minutes from me now, and this would be the place to come and have weird ideas, and have alternative ways of looking at healing.
[00:06:26] John Clarke: In my own evolution, I've also been trained in reiki. Now, level two, and I work and do table sessions as a recipient, with my reiki master. And I'm just open to whatever might happen on that table. And the more open I am, the more powerful the experience usually is. Right?
[00:06:43] John Clarke: And myself and my reiki master are just. In awe of what can happen when you're open to it, right? And really when there's a combined self-energy in the room, and she has a extremely powerful pre presence. Gift and openness and [00:07:00] intuition, right? So I'm just, it's like that thing, the, I told one of my clinicians yesterday, I was like, she asked me like, what do I believe about X, Y, and Z?
[00:07:09] John Clarke: And I was like, the older I get the more I'm just like. Who knows? Could be, maybe, who am I to say, like what's real and what isn't? Whereas on the other hand, I think a lot of times, especially as a practitioner, we try to reduce like what healing is because we need to understand it.
[00:07:26] John Clarke: We need a schema that's like tight enough to be like, here's what I'm doing for 45 minutes with Seth. And a lot of that is for the therapist or the practitioner to be like, I have a frame, I'm gonna hold it, for 45 minutes.
[00:07:38] Seth Kopald: Yeah. And even as you say that, I feel like I get more and more downloads now. I just hear the words like cultural burden.
[00:07:45] John Clarke: Yeah.
[00:07:45] Seth Kopald: The way people have been trained, it's been passed down. This is the way, this is the frame.
[00:07:50] John Clarke: in today's episode, I wanna thank our sponsor Jane. Jane is a clinic management software in EMR that helps you handle your clinic's daily admin tasks, so [00:08:00] you can free up your evenings and weekends. The team understands how precious your time is and recognizes that charting can often be the most time consuming part of your practice.
[00:08:09] John Clarke: So to save you from having to chart. From scratch, you can check out Jane's template library, which gives you access to templates that have been generously created and shared by health and wellness practitioners in the community. Once you have a template you like, you can choose to customize it further with charting tools such as range scales, text fields, check boxes, and more.
[00:08:31] John Clarke: To see how Jane can help you spend more time doing what you love, head to the link in the show notes to book a personalized demo. Or if you're ready to get started, you can use the code, John, at the time of sign up for a one month grace period applied to your new account.
[00:08:46] Seth Kopald: Being a practitioner has been nice because I haven't had to break out of any of those frames. I've just, I came in wide open.
[00:08:54] Seth Kopald: So it's been helpful for me and it now that the mystical side of IFS is even bringing embraced [00:09:00] more and more. 'cause it used to be like, there's all this, but don't tell anybody. . Because it might not be accepted and, now they, it's out of the gates and I think people are just.
[00:09:10] Seth Kopald: You can't deny what's happening. And I also think looking at my own kids who are in their twenties and working with younger people, I think as a human race, we are evolving into, like these kids have way more spiritual ability.
[00:09:26] John Clarke: Yes, they do.
[00:09:26] Seth Kopald: Than I think my generation has. Like I grew up with metaphysics and was doing stone healing as a teenager and I've always been into it and I feel like for me, I've developed it.
[00:09:37] Seth Kopald: Then I see these natural abilities in these kids, and I'm like, oh wow, that's quite incredible. Yeah. So I do think there's something happening with the human race that we are moving into a more like readiness for . More spiritual type of experiences. Yeah. And where even when I was in my twenties, I remember, walking around Corvallis, Oregon, I had long hair and I'd keep a [00:10:00] little journal with me.
[00:10:01] Seth Kopald: And one time I paused and said, you know what, if. Things that feel supernatural, could one day just feel natural, like these things that feel like better write that. Oh, like SP and all these things like, yeah. If we only use so much of our brains, what if we, yeah, what if these are just natural abilities?
[00:10:18] Seth Kopald: And what if it becomes normal and not like abnormal or supernatural? Natural.
[00:10:23] John Clarke: I read something the other day. I was on the website of a psychic and they said basically everyone is psychic. It's just a matter of this psychic has built that muscle and been open to that way of receiving information.
[00:10:35] John Clarke: Which was really interesting. So it that offers this imitation of it's less of a, like those are special, spiritual. Exactly. Being that, and I'm not right, or I'm not, spiritual in that way or whatever. I always appreciate that you and I have your background with education, organizational psych.
[00:10:53] John Clarke: We talked a lot about kids and child development last time, which I really love that you have that perspective in IFS 'cause I, [00:11:00] as I've got a 5-year-old, I've got another one on the way I think. All the time, every day about child development, right? And then I'm sitting here working with, adults with trauma day in and day out, and all of that is inner child work, right?
[00:11:13] Seth Kopald: All of that is, yeah. I was gonna say, you're working with adults who have children inside. That's right. And the more people know about child development, I really think this feels like a. Like a weird thing to say, but I sometimes I think self even needs a little coaching. Yeah. Like people say, oh, once you're in self, you know what to do.
[00:11:31] Seth Kopald: And I think that's true.
[00:11:32] Seth Kopald: And if the practitioner or the person knows a lot about child development, when a five-year-old says, I think it's important that I maintain the family's finances. Obviously when everyone would say, yeah, a 5-year-old shouldn't do that, but what is a five-year-old capable of and what would a five year old.
[00:11:52] Seth Kopald: What's the cognitive ability? So of course they would think these things because the brain development of a 5-year-old is [00:12:00] limited compared to an 18-year-old or a 25-year-old even. And if you're a man, you might, your brain not, might mature until they're like 35,
[00:12:07] Seth Kopald: yeah. It's, knowing these things really helps a practitioner or a therapist at help the client attune.
[00:12:17] Seth Kopald: These younger parts and even just have like the big P perspective oh, of course. A 3-year-old. . Like now that, a 3-year-old would think this way, how do you feel towards this part now?
[00:12:28] John Clarke: Right,
[00:12:28] Seth Kopald: exactly. Now my heart just cracks wide open.
[00:12:32] John Clarke: . It's this thing around spirituality and kids, I learn so much from my daughter every day. And since the last time we met my wife and I and my daughter, we had been living in Mexico City and through my daughter's school and just through living there, we celebrated the Los MUTOs right? Really beautiful tradition that they have in Mexico to honor those who have passed.
[00:12:57] John Clarke: In my experience, there was no formal [00:13:00] tradition for that. For me growing up. Like we might talk about grandpa or see a photo and that was it, right? There was a lot of grief around it. And a lot of unresolved grief around it, and a lot of finality around that's it. He was here, now he's not, and.
[00:13:13] John Clarke: In Mexico and even having kids, my daughter was four at the time, like celebrating this holiday and celebrating this culture and this ritual, and building an altar, right? And sending a message to these loved ones, right? And connecting with them on a spiritual level is just a beautiful, like really healing.
[00:13:32] John Clarke: Tradition for me to go through and also for me to see how natural that was for little kids to do. They didn't think it's weird at all. And I was also kinda afraid it'd make them uncomfortable and we have to talk about death and all this stuff. And to them it's like they have less hangups about it than I do.
[00:13:47] John Clarke: It was very natural for them to do that and build these altars and offer food and all these pieces. So I, I learned so much through going through that with my family and with my daughter. Yeah.
[00:13:58] Seth Kopald: That's beautiful. [00:14:00] As you say that, what's making me think of is for myself in this last year, I did, my mom is my, who is passed in January is my was my main tor mentor in my life and probably 90% of the IFS work is rooted to her.
[00:14:14] Seth Kopald: And she like cut off her whole family from herself and for me. And there's this whole pattern of disconnecting with people. And this past year doing some deep work. I was able to, weren't clear a lot of her energy out of my body. But then what started happening, I started reconnecting with that side of my family through the ancestral realm.
[00:14:40] Seth Kopald: Not really meeting them in person so much, but feeling like like my mom's father died when she was a baby. He, that's the whole story. And now he came to me and I realize one time it. Hit me, like, where do I get this from? I'm not like my mom, I'm not like my dad. Like where do I get, is this just me?
[00:14:58] Seth Kopald: And then [00:15:00] he came to me, he is no, you got it from me. Like this personality, this the way you look at things. And then I felt like the whole line of that family, this kind of funneled in and became part of me. Like now I'm like. A result of this family line, which took the aloneness that I was holding in the world.
[00:15:21] Seth Kopald: Like it just dissolved this feeling like, like I'm floating as this individual alone. Like I really, having that support and knowing where you come from, it was like a ground that I didn't know I needed.
[00:15:36] John Clarke: Yeah.
[00:15:37] Seth Kopald: That
[00:15:37] Seth Kopald: I'm standing on. And I used to work with migrant farm worker families and.
[00:15:42] Seth Kopald: And I always saw there's a light that these families would have, even though they're like the poorest people in the United States going from farm to farm making pennies and no one like this invisible culture that no one sees. And, but when at the end of the day they come and pick up their kids from the childcare centers and they're just like glowing [00:16:00] with basically and community.
[00:16:03] Seth Kopald: And it's because they do have these extended family networks of support. And we think here in United States, it's really advantageous to be this rugged individual. You should be able to do things yourself and but having that ancestral support I can't say how much it's helped me in the last year to, to become more whole as a person.
[00:16:23] Seth Kopald: Yeah,
[00:16:25] John Clarke: it's huge. It's part of the bigger story of you and how you got here. Yeah I've had similar experiences in my personal IFS work and having ancestors come forward, especially around themes of my individualism, my, like internalized patriarchy basically around I have to do everything myself.
[00:16:45] John Clarke: I need to be strong and brave and infallible. I need to work really hard so I make lots of money, even if it's at the detriment of myself or my health. And like we see this playing out and we see, am I. Case like a lot of men who come to my practice because that [00:17:00] paradigm is no longer working right, or they're stressed, or they got angry and they snapped at their partner, and then they've got their shame parts are up, right?
[00:17:07] John Clarke: All this plays out all the time, but there were some really powerful sessions I did with Tammy where I had ancestors coming forward and showing me how we got here and showing me how a lot of those, these legacy burdens were inherited and inherited. That's how they ended up, in the lap of my dad and in the lap of me, right?
[00:17:25] John Clarke: And there I was around this campfire with these ancestors with the choice now, and choice is like the opposite of trauma. Like choice is like where healing happens, right? So I had choice in that moment as to. To what degree do I wanna inherit this burden, or do I want to do, I wanna keep it going and pass it along to my children. And especially this piece around masculinity that's what does it mean? So that was just a massive session and I was both like in all that was happening and this is crazy. And also this is completely natural and it's just happening. I can't make this stuff up.
[00:17:57] John Clarke: Sometimes clients go I am I just making this up. It's [00:18:00] does it really matter? And yeah. Do you feel like it's real? Looks like it's real, something's happening. Does it feel safe?
[00:18:05] Hey, if you're a therapist, I want to help you deepen your client work, help them get better results without burning yourself out. You can do all this by learning to harness the power of IFS. So I want to tell you, we've got a free IFS resource library that you can download. Now, this is full of resources like my Quickstart Guide to IFS, the full IFS protocol, a bunch of demos of me doing IFS.
[00:18:30] With real people and, extra self-care practices for therapists. You can get all this for free in the link in the description, and I hope you enjoy.
[00:18:39] Seth Kopald: And I like to say to clients like one thing I can tell you is I'm seeing this happening again and again.
[00:18:44] Seth Kopald: And it's becoming like my informal data is saying it's, you're experiencing what other people are experiencing. This is becoming normalized. And one thing I'll add to what you're saying is, for people that are listening. I think it's important. I heard the term [00:19:00] energetic hygiene recently, and I think that's more to do, as you're helping people clear stuff, just to make sure if you're picking up things that you're clearing your system.
[00:19:07] Seth Kopald: But I think on another level is like these are societal burdens that are continuously coming at us. So even though I might release some patriarchy or release some individualism five years from now. It's gonna build up again 'cause it's, we're porous and it's coming in. So I think it's really important to continue and to also let us know is, I like to say energy goes in, energy can come out.
[00:19:30] Seth Kopald: It's that simple. And once we realize that this energy's not mine, we don't really have to do this in big, deep witnessing session. Like I quite often, like I was with my therapist the other day and I realized there was energy in me that wasn't mine. And I was like, okay, gimme a second. I basically just imagined my crown opening and it just leaving and going out my window and into the earth.
[00:19:52] Seth Kopald: And I'm like, okay that next, what are we doing now? But once we realize that stuff flows [00:20:00] in, it could also flow out that it's good to check once in a while and, okay, now am I automatically doing these behaviors again? I thought I cleared that outta my system. Why am I talking like.
[00:20:11] Seth Kopald: I haven't it's not necessarily like it didn't work, but sometimes stuff comes back in and we just have to be conscious. Yeah.
[00:20:19] John Clarke: I'm a believer the more I do this work, the more I'm a believer, I. Long, long time ago I was traveling through Ireland and my wife and I stayed with like a host family in exchange for working on their farm.
[00:20:31] John Clarke: And the woman was a psychotherapist and a druid. She and her husband were both Druids and I. I remember the way that she approached psychotherapy was very much with this spiritual and energetic piece as well. And she thought it was absolutely crazy that I, she asked me if I do any sort of clearing or, energetic hygiene in between sessions as no, I'm trained as a psychodynamic therapist.
[00:20:55] John Clarke: Whereas in reality what that is like inviting projection, inviting that energy transfer, [00:21:00] writing, inviting some of it to come at me so that I can right work it and bring it back to you and create this corrective healing thing. But the residue that I would pick up and have picked up over the years until I slowly have found this other way of working.
[00:21:14] John Clarke: That's not to say I am like a hundred percent, good all the time and in my center, but she just thought it was absolutely crazy that one would. Any healer would go in like that or see six or seven or eight people in a day, which is the life of many therapists. If not most. Yes.
[00:21:31] Seth Kopald: . I mean it's, I'm sure it contributes to burnout and .
[00:21:36] Seth Kopald: you know how many of us as practitioners or therapists. It's really easy to guide people and being self with people, but then we struggle in our own personal lives. And how much of that is what, how percentage of that is the effect that we're holding other people's energy.
[00:21:55] Seth Kopald: There's some really beautiful techniques. I think one thing I might mention this in my book. [00:22:00] My, one of my therapist taught me this, it's like this, call it the golden screen technique where you can imagine oh, if I'm holding even some of my mom's energy, or my partner's energy, or my kids, or.
[00:22:12] Seth Kopald: That I could give it back to them, but put it through this golden screen. And the golden screen collects anything that's not positive, anything that's not their essence. So I'm not gonna send back the yuck. And then the screen collects yuck. And then you can burn it off
[00:22:27] Seth Kopald: I usually, it looks to me like tar that gets stuck, which oftentimes what burdens look like to me and many people.
[00:22:32] Seth Kopald: And I have a dragon that I just see burning it off. And then the same sense, if I've given my energy to people and I feel depleted. I can pull my energy back through the other side of the screen and collect any yuck. Yeah, and it's a way, one way to do that. The person who I taught records said if, if you just feel like there was a heavy session, or there was, say you worked with somebody with a lot of energy or like negative energy, or UBS [00:23:00] even to wash your hands with cold water is one way to just like Clear.
[00:23:05] Seth Kopald: Clear your, clear yourself. Yeah. People use sage, people use stones. There's certain stones are really great for blocking. If there's a, if I sense some really, like a pretty strong ub, I'll grab some. I like these black turling bracelets and I'm, I'll put another piece in front of me and I'm like, okay, let's do this.
[00:23:24] Seth Kopald: But I like to protect myself. Often, I often burn Sage or Pa Santo during a session. I did a session yesterday where somebody was releasing some pretty strong other energy and I took the Pa Santo and I just I was just going at the screen like this and I don't, they were outside, so I don't know if Augusta Wind did something, but I went like this in their hair from the same direction, flew back, and I was like, I was a little surprised.
[00:23:51] Seth Kopald: I was like, okay. All right. Wow. I would say even before I found all this spirituality, the depth I am now [00:24:00] doing IFS virtually shows us I could feel your system here. Like you are in California. I'm in Michigan. So just by seeing you. I think what it does is we're already connected, but it's really imperceivable.
[00:24:13] Seth Kopald: If we're connected with everyone through our self energy. But when I see you, it's almost like a little portal. Yeah. But like now I can feel John and when the more we do this work and the more we get attuned to guides, the more intuitive we become. I feel like the more we start having x-ray vision also into other people's systems.
[00:24:32] Seth Kopald: Like I could start, I start to see people's parts. I can see when their guides are showing up, I might say, Hey, I. There's a collection of elders here for you. You wanna check and see I see, I sense it, and I only do that with clients where I feel like I have their permission. I don't, I wouldn't just do that.
[00:24:47] Seth Kopald: I kind of check in with people. But and I try not to some people say you're just then convincing them that's what's happening. But it happens enough that, or I'll say I see another little one poking [00:25:00] around a corner. Can we check to see if there's another part behind this one?
[00:25:03] John Clarke: When I went through my reiki level one training I realized something through that, which again, I have some parts, like skeptical parts and self-conscious parts that are like, don't say this. You're gonna sound crazy. You're not special. I'm like, okay I hear you. You don't want me to boast I get that.
[00:25:19] John Clarke: But I realize I can effectively feel. What's happening in other people's bodies sometimes. Sometimes I'll feel that in mind. Which not having a good framework for it can be activating or bothersome or feel like this empath thing, this involuntary empath thing. Until I went to, to become Reiki trained and work with my reiki master, who does many modalities.
[00:25:43] John Clarke: But she helped me tune into that and use that. And sometimes we'll be in the middle of a session I'll, and I can be wrong. So there's also that piece, the humility piece of, I don't know if this is, if this helps take it, if it doesn't throw it out. I try to offer every single thing that comes outta my mouth in [00:26:00] that same open hand with clients. They, if I know and can tell that they know, they can say no to me or go, that didn't work. Then I know like the work is pretty safe. Yeah. I love it when they like say no to me. So I might say, just check and see what's happening, like in your lower belly, what's happening there?
[00:26:18] John Clarke: And they'll go, oh yeah, there's like something happening. Okay. Yeah. Could you. Be with that. Would it make sense to go toward that? Would it make sense to put a hand there and just listen? And I'm feeling it in mine too, right? Sometimes it's accurate, sometimes it's not. But I'm just curious about all of it, right?
[00:26:34] John Clarke: And again, this idea of i'm more open to the fact that there's many ways of receiving information, right? Whether it's internal and somatically from my body information from outside sources, from ancestors, from guides, whatever. Hey, what would happen if we stayed open to all of that?
[00:26:49] John Clarke: Yeah. And I also think sometimes when people go, some clients who are not big believers in this mystical side of things go and have experience like psych psychedelic [00:27:00] experiences. And if they're open to that, they go, oh my gosh, there's, there are many ways of receiving information. And that created this like temporary superhigh to receiving that information or receiving a guide and connecting with them or whatever.
[00:27:11] John Clarke: And I'm like, great. Do you wanna use that? I just see it all as a tool. Same thing if a client comes in and goes, what works for me is my faith, my relationship with God, with Jesus Christ. It's let's use that. Yeah. Totally. It's a resource,
[00:27:23] Seth Kopald: Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent.
[00:27:24] Seth Kopald: And I think going back to sensing other people's systems, the analogy I like to use is almost like we're like creating a Venn diagram. Like here's my system's a circle, yours is a circle. And when we're, there's a, when we're together, they overlap and there's this we space.
[00:27:41] Seth Kopald: And I feel like you can sense my parts.
[00:27:43] Seth Kopald: I can sense your parts, you can might sense my guides. I can sense your guides. The more, like you say, we, we flex that muscle. It is like playing an instrument like, everyone's capable of playing a guitar if you practice. And everyone's capable of having this, I believe this intuitive singing or knowing or sensing.[00:28:00]
[00:28:00] Seth Kopald: Maybe it doesn't come through your eyes, maybe it comes through a feeling, but, some people may not be interested in it, so that's great. But I do agree a hundred percent with choice and I also frame it that way I'm not sure if this feels right to you, if not. Just tell me to even tell me to stop talking like but I'll share.
[00:28:18] Seth Kopald: You want me to share what I'm sensing right now, what I just heard or what I will just drop for me. Because even Nick, back in the day, when I was trained, they were like, if we get 30 people, then we'll have this level one. That was, yeah, you back in two rum, 10,
[00:28:33] Seth Kopald: now
[00:28:33] Seth Kopald: there's only 30,000 people.
[00:28:35] Seth Kopald: Yeah. Be
[00:28:36] John Clarke: loved one trait,
[00:28:37] Seth Kopald: but even then what really grabbed my attention was that there's wisdom inside of self energy, right? So as we, as our parts give us space, why is it that we just know what to do? Why is it that we have clarity and perspective and we, and on one hand, physiologically, when our parts relax, we don't [00:29:00] need to be in this part of our brain, wondering if we're safe.
[00:29:03] Seth Kopald: Like we could open up our creativity and our,
[00:29:06] John Clarke: yeah.
[00:29:06] Seth Kopald: Intuition, but I find when we allow wisdom to, to enter us. Is it because I've been here before, like I believe in past lives I see things like I connected with different lives or if that, maybe that's not true, but maybe there's the collective unconscious, William James said years and years ago that we all share some kind of UNC level of unconsciousness, but there's a wisdom in that stream.
[00:29:35] Seth Kopald: And as we like when I have clients who are just like, I just don't know what to do, with this thing in my life, oftentimes as we get space from parts and get into a I believe the heart is where we can tap into the self energy more than the head. And as we get into the heart space, all of a sudden, let's see what clarity comes for you.
[00:29:56] Yep.
[00:29:56] Seth Kopald: And it's usually the common denominator of [00:30:00] all this wisdom is love
[00:30:02] Seth Kopald: a
[00:30:02] Seth Kopald: hundred percent. Like it comes from a loving place. Usually it's usually the wisdom when it drops. There's a sense of it's important beyond me. Like it's not so individualistic. There's I'm thinking about all my whole family now.
[00:30:14] Seth Kopald: I'm thinking about my community or my workplace. Like it's a, the natural state of wisdom is not so individual as we think. I think the individualist stuff is more here. Yeah.
[00:30:28] John Clarke: That clarity is not always I know exactly what's gonna happen next in life. That clarity can be I have enough.
[00:30:36] John Clarke: Wisdom and intuition and courage to meaningfully move forward in my life and take the next step. And I think that one of the best, most valuable promises that self can offer is that self can handle whatever happens next. Yeah. However lovely or horrific or anything in between, it is right. 'cause that's what life is.
[00:30:57] John Clarke: That's kinda the only thing that's guaranteed is life's gonna be both. [00:31:00] It's gonna be pain and pleasure. It's gonna be love and loss. And self can hold it all, and you can still move forward meaningfully in your life and you can hold whatever happens next.
[00:31:10] Seth Kopald: Yeah, because that's where the courage and the confidence of self comes in.
[00:31:16] Seth Kopald: And I can say this for my personal life, this is my own anecdotal data that when I'm given a download or given a guidance, it's not like a of where I have clarity what's gonna happen, but it's the clarity of what. Yeah. Even if it feels like it's not the best for me personally, I'm getting the message that the right thing to do is to do this thing and then I do the thing and something usually unexpectedly good comes out of it, or my life just feels easier.
[00:31:48] Seth Kopald: And when I don't listen, I feel like I end up hitting all these walls. I end up. So I do feel like we're, whether it's our ancestors or this collective wisdom of self energy. It's, I believe [00:32:00] it's, if it has a consciousness of some kind, it's trying to help us make decisions that are good for the betterment of all.
[00:32:09] Seth Kopald: And the more we listen, it doesn't mean there's never gonna be tragedy or there's never gonna be sorrow. That's part of life. No one promises that, but like you said, within these moments, there might be a sorrow or something that happens within that. That stems from that choice. But there's a, then there's often a beauty in the sorrow.
[00:32:30] Seth Kopald: Like I can, like a loving, like a beautiful grief that can happen.
[00:32:34] Seth Kopald: So it's, I guess like for me with Akashic records and guides, I, it's, part of my biggest burden is feeling disconnected and alone. So it's just like more people like, I just feel like there's more. I have my KA record guides, I have my other guides, I have my ancestors like, and more and more I feel like oh, there's that base they talk about in attachment [00:33:00] theory.
[00:33:00] Seth Kopald: Like I have this home base that might not have come from my parents, but now it's coming from guides, ancestors. Yeah. Friends like you,
[00:33:09] John Clarke: yeah. Like that. You mentioned . So much of the model is about. Love And again, therapists, we're not supposed to use that word. We're supposed to find another more clinical term.
[00:33:21] John Clarke: So , that's in there somewhere for me.
[00:33:24] Seth Kopald: See, I'd be fired '
[00:33:24] Seth Kopald: cause I'm often like, what kind of love does this part need?
[00:33:27] John Clarke: Yeah, you'd be fired in me. Exactly. You'd be reporting the board if there was one hanging over your head. It sounds like some stuff. I'm sorry. It's funny 'cause I'll be in session like, should I use that word?
[00:33:39] John Clarke: Should I not like it really is what it is. But again I'm primarily a trauma therapist and the more I think about trauma and learn about it and work with it trauma to me is marked by a loss of agency and choice and a loss of, or the threat of the loss of connection, right?
[00:33:56] John Clarke: A lot of times kids, they don't have [00:34:00] choice, right? And the parent that just yelled at them or hit them for their survival, and if they want dinner tonight, they have to bypass. Their own parts and reconnect with that parent or forgive the parent even though the kid's not ready to move on, right? This is content that just happened yesterday in a session with one of my adults, right? And to where, when this plays out with her in her work life and with her boss, it feels like she's there again. And it feels that high stakes and it feels like I need to reassure my boss that we're good. It's okay.
[00:34:30] John Clarke: Even though he just yelled at me. And name called me and raised his voice and all that. So there's this self abandoning. This bypassing of these parts and really bypassing of truth. Because the truth is it's not okay that you speak to me that way. That's right.
[00:34:46] John Clarke: Yeah. And like she has choice in agency now, right? But when that moment happens with her boss and she gets blended she's not there anymore. And she's blended. And in that part it's I need to maintain connection with this person who's yelling at [00:35:00] me. And it's confusing, like this is what gaslighting is, right?
[00:35:03] John Clarke: It's like I need to shapeshift in whatever way I need to do right now to stay lovable to this person right in front of me, right? And there I am, further unintentionally burdening and bypassing my own parts that are holding these fears, right? Yeah, I just, I see it playing out back then, right?
[00:35:22] John Clarke: Yeah. I see where the Trailhead takes us. I see it happening right now as a 3-year-old, working a tech job, right?
[00:35:28] Seth Kopald: Yeah
[00:35:29] Seth Kopald: and as you say that, those words that . Those simple words, the little phrases that we have in IFS of course you have to,
[00:35:35] John Clarke: yeah.
[00:35:35] Seth Kopald: Do that.
[00:35:36] Seth Kopald: Or of course you're angry. 'cause for me, anger is like that truth, but on fire okay, it's, I've had enough and I want you to know this truth. I'm gonna yell at you about it.
[00:35:45] John Clarke: Yeah.
[00:35:45] Seth Kopald: But when we're little, we don't have a choice because I have to, it's a survival technique, like you said who's gonna feed me?
[00:35:53] Seth Kopald: Move on. Yep.
[00:35:58] John Clarke: Yeah, that's good stuff. [00:36:00] Good stuff. You know what I, I told this client yesterday always with the preface that I'm an extremely imperfect parent, which I know is shocking to everyone. Something I try to do, if I miss the mark with my daughter and I end up apologizing to her is I make sure that she knows she doesn't have to forgive me.
[00:36:18] John Clarke: She doesn't have to be ready to move on right now or at all. Because I'm trying, really trying, and again, I know I'm sure I'm screwing her up in some other ways that I can't see. But in that moment, trying to make sure that she doesn't have to move on for me. And I can be with Right.
[00:36:32] John Clarke: And parts that are up, parts that are holding the shame around. Daddy lost his temper or whatever, 'cause we were rushing and we were gonna be late for school and that's why it's doesn't really matter why, Yeah. But yeah, I try to give her that
[00:36:44] John Clarke: you's great.
[00:36:45] Seth Kopald: What I like to say is like a check for myself and as I'm coaching clients with parenting, what am is the thing I'm about to say or do is if we boil it down to his essence, is it so I'll be okay?
[00:36:59] John Clarke: Exactly. [00:37:00]
[00:37:00] Seth Kopald: And if that's the essence of it, just try to pause and not do it. Yeah. And eventually you'll start seeing your relationship improve because all these things I'm apologizing and I need you to forgive me.
[00:37:14] Seth Kopald: Everything is about Yeah. That's really, it's all centered so I'm okay.
[00:37:18] John Clarke: Yep.
[00:37:18] Seth Kopald: And it really has nothing to do with the child. Yeah. And I find as we pause and anything that's we, so the only things we're doing is really, I. In the interest of the child, we are creating like new neural pathways and new habits and it becomes our new way of being.
[00:37:35] Seth Kopald: And now the child, like I've seen like glorious relationship building with my clients. 'cause I do a lot of work, especially with adult kids. Like a lot of the, my new specialty really is working with parents in like 20 or 30-year-old kids. Yeah. Because at this point they're just like, I don't know if I can be around you.
[00:37:53] Seth Kopald: Like you hurt me, you shame me, or you. I don't have to be around you anymore. And these [00:38:00] relationships are really struggling and I basically work with the parents like I would if they had toddlers.
[00:38:06] John Clarke: Yeah.
[00:38:06] Seth Kopald: Like how do you help this child feel loved, seen, accepted? How do you let them explore? How do you let them like flourish in their own way of being?
[00:38:15] Seth Kopald: And you be curious about it so that they have more space to do and how they wanna show you things now they wanna include you and. Helping, adults should kids be heard by how their parents what they think are doing is helpful, is hurting. Yep. So it's a really, it's a beautiful thing that you're already like noticing okay, you don't have to forgive me right now.
[00:38:39] Seth Kopald: And that's why I love that with this repair piece where we can come to you. And not ask the child, is there something I did that hurt you? So I can apologize. It's more I realize by monitoring my own behavior, I did something that I don't feel comfortable with, that I'm assuming hurt you.
[00:38:58] Seth Kopald: And I'm, I wanna tell you, I didn't [00:39:00] like my own behavior. And I'm curious how did it did, how did it impact you?
[00:39:03] John Clarke: I love that. There's bits and pieces sometimes that I really like from like the 12 step community. And one is this idea of keeping your side of the street clean.
[00:39:11] John Clarke: And I think about that in this type of parenting moment, right? Of a parent really taking ownership and responsibility for their parts and their behavior and the things they said. And the damage that they, they did cause right. I think there's something really powerful. In that I also have a client, and she might even be listening, who is going through the very thing you're talking about, which is a, kid is now in their twenties, doesn't quote, need, mom for any immediate needs now, food, shelter, money, whatever. But they have a lot of repair to do, right? And sometimes mom will come to toward the kid and go, I'm sorry. You know how sorry I am. And. It does the opposite of what she wants. Because what she's trying to do is say I missed the mark then.
[00:39:54] John Clarke: And I wasn't the safe. Base that you needed then? I'm working on being that now, if you want [00:40:00] that from me. But there's a tension to it. There's an impulse. It feels like an impulse of, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. In other words I need you to help me with this guilt.
[00:40:08] John Clarke: Because I still can't, I can't hold this guilt, so I need you to relieve me of it, right? So I remind you all of the time, every single time I talk to you for the past 10 years, how sorry I am. And it's just, it doesn't really work.
[00:40:20] Seth Kopald: One of the best ways to know what's working is to look at the reaction of the child.
[00:40:26] John Clarke: Yeah.
[00:40:26] Seth Kopald: And if I apologize, and then they pull back or roll their eyes, or if they get quiet, it's like, it should be a little flag that, oh, I must be blended with a part here.
[00:40:38] John Clarke: Yeah.
[00:40:39] Seth Kopald: Because. Anytime that I speak from apart, it means there's a way for me to be okay.
[00:40:45] John Clarke: Yeah.
[00:40:45] Seth Kopald: So if I say to you, I'm sorry.
[00:40:47] Seth Kopald: Please release me of my deeds. That's right. Then I'll be okay. I'll be able to look at myself in the mirror. I won't be feeling shame. But if I, so how do we know when sometimes we might not [00:41:00] realize my behavior is hurting somebody and I can't do a repair because I don't even know.
[00:41:04] Seth Kopald: But what we can do is watch that if I have an interaction, even if I thought it was positive and my children detach, pull away, get annoyed or irritable instead of, in my book, you point at them, the Jamaican proverb, there's three fingers pointing back. I must have at least three parts that were interacting with this child.
[00:41:23] Seth Kopald: Like one exile that was sitting in the background and two protectors that were bouncing off of each other. One critic chewing at me, another one's begging for forgiveness. And so if we just watch our children's reaction and say I am responsible for whatever just happened, what if I check in to see what the heck was happening with me to create this effect?
[00:41:45] Seth Kopald: And if we even say to the child, wow, I just noticed something happened and I could tell what I said didn't land on you well, or what I said might've just hurt you or might and instead of I might, [00:42:00] maybe kids can't even say what it was, but I could say can I just say that again in a different way or can I just let you know I must not have done that.
[00:42:07] Seth Kopald: I think what I'm really trying to say is. I love you and I wish our relationship could be closer, and I want to do what's right for us to be there. And if you want to tell me what you need, I'd be happy to hear it without even saying anything else.
[00:42:19] John Clarke: I love that sometimes if I ask a parent in the session to, if they can soften, if they can unblend, if they can connect to their heart, if they can connect just to the center of their chest.
[00:42:32] John Clarke: Wait, and wait. And when it comes to, you tell me right now in this therapy session, what you wanna say to your daughter. It'll sound a lot like that. Exactly. And it's okay, go tell her that.
[00:42:44] Seth Kopald: Oh, wait, we do
[00:42:45] Seth Kopald: it from this again.
[00:42:46] Seth Kopald: We're talking about love.
[00:42:48] John Clarke: Yeah. I didn't say it though, right?
[00:42:52] Seth Kopald: I say quite often. Can you give this part? The love and attention it needed.
[00:42:58] John Clarke: Yeah.
[00:42:58] Seth Kopald: That you needed, [00:43:00] that you didn't get. I don't understand why. I guess that's part of being a practitioner. I don't get why love is bad to say. Yeah.
[00:43:08] John Clarke: I don't know.
[00:43:09] Seth Kopald: I know it comes with stuff. It creates liability, I'm sure.
[00:43:12] Seth Kopald: Yeah. But , when you look at Frank Anderson's book, I believe he said, the cure for trauma is love.
[00:43:18] John Clarke: And he's right. And he hasn't gotten fired yet, as far as I know. Or lost his license. Yeah, no, I I have a lot of thoughts around that, probably for another day, yeah. Part three of our conversations here. Okay. But yeah I love that, a lot of clients, they wanna know like, how do I know what I'm blended? And this client yesterday that's what she wanted to know, and. I think one of my go-tos is this piece around non agenda. When you're saying, I'm sorry.
[00:43:42] John Clarke: You know how sorry I am. Does it feel like you're trying to get some, make something happen there? Your
[00:43:46] Seth Kopald: point and need something to happen.
[00:43:47] John Clarke: Yeah. I need you to forgive me. I need you to relieve me of this guilt so I can be the parent that you're asking me to be. That's still all yours.
[00:43:54] John Clarke: That's all your work.
[00:43:56] Seth Kopald: Right. But I think helping people, 'cause this is [00:44:00] something that I. I've really developed in myself is if we can't sense I have an agenda, 'cause I'm so blended that if any, even a manager part is watching the reaction of the people we're talking to, that might give us just enough flag that we pause and say, what if.
[00:44:20] Seth Kopald: It just means I'm blended and I have to check, if I get a negative reaction or the reaction I wasn't hoping for, like for me. I had a part who, who still comes around, but he is not as active as he used to be. That thought if you jump in and help somebody with whatever they're doing, it will guarantee them to love me and think I'm valuable.
[00:44:45] Seth Kopald: And it would literally create the opposite effect.
[00:44:48] John Clarke: Yeah,
[00:44:48] Seth Kopald: because I would jump in and help. Especially my own kids, they would feel like I don't trust them. Yeah. I'm like not letting unintentionally tell them you can
[00:44:57] Seth Kopald: do it.
[00:44:57] Seth Kopald: I don't trust, I'm tripping you of your [00:45:00] efficacy. Yeah. Like I'm treating you like a child.
[00:45:01] Seth Kopald: If you're an adult, I'm doing this to you, it actually took an IFS person who I said, Hey, I'm realizing I'm doing this helping thing and I can tell this part really wants connection. And he, it was a little harsh, but he goes isn't that interesting that it's causing the opposite effect? And it was literally like a punch to my gut.
[00:45:17] Seth Kopald: And I got blended by shame and all kinds of things for a couple days. But afterwards, the, like the. The Phoenix that came out of the fire was like this whole new life for me that I was like, wow, this helping and that I'm doing I, it never hit me that this is something that's causing me more harm in my life than good.
[00:45:41] John Clarke: Yeah.
[00:45:44] John Clarke: Somehow we're gonna run out of time again, Seth, which we either need to start doing four hour episodes or just once a month. Yeah. 'cause we should just hang out all the time.
[00:45:52] Seth Kopald: Yeah, exactly.
[00:45:54] Seth Kopald: It'd be like, it's called the Life Show.
[00:45:56] John Clarke: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, we can rebrand the whole podcast and everything.
[00:45:59] John Clarke: [00:46:00] 49 minutes in and we're like just getting to even juicier stuff. So we have so much overlap and love of the model and this curiosity around spirituality and mysticism piece is great and really fun to explore with you. And also I'm like, there's a part of me that's like.
[00:46:17] John Clarke: , You need to write your follow up book or a few follow up books. 'cause self-led and I've recommended it to a lot of clients. It gives people a really good grasp, again, like with this client on self-led parenting, like what does that look like? But I think even that as a follow up book would be so amazing.
[00:46:34] Seth Kopald: Like what would be the follow up book? Just on parenting or self-led
[00:46:37] Seth Kopald: parenting. Yeah.
[00:46:37] Seth Kopald: I've thought about that. I've also thought of something around mysticism and Yeah,
[00:46:41] John Clarke: I think both.
[00:46:42] Seth Kopald: Yeah. I. I could make each chapter a book was my original thought. Do something all at like now flesh out the whole thing about what can you do at work and yeah, I don't think I can do relationships yet 'cause I'm still work,
[00:46:55] John Clarke: sure.
[00:46:56] Seth Kopald: Like my parts, let me do enough the [00:47:00] disclaimer to be getting that I'm still, to
[00:47:01] Seth Kopald: get the chapter off. Still
[00:47:02] Seth Kopald: working at it where my, yeah, my other parts wouldn't let me even publish the book until I actually was a self-led parent. Yeah. Enough at the time.
[00:47:12] John Clarke: Yeah. I just love the approach of the book 'cause it's what does it look like to be self-led in this domain of your life?
[00:47:17] John Clarke: Because a lot of times that's the main thing that people are coming to therapy with, right? Like, how do I be a better parent? So it's like, how do I apply this whole IFS stuff to this domain of my life? 'cause that's the one causing me the most agony right now. I'm good at work, I've got all that.
[00:47:31] John Clarke: That's the case for this client.
[00:47:32] Seth Kopald: I'll throw out a phrase that I've been using lately. Maybe I'll. Therapists and practitioners are listening, it might be helpful. You better not be in love. But teaching a level one I'd add in what if I would, I don't know how I'm even gonna phrase this, but if we do this work, I think you'll have a, a different lived experience, right?
[00:47:52] Seth Kopald: So if this manager allows us to go to this exile. What would life be [00:48:00] like for you? What would it a, would it be better for you manager? If this exile was healed, but what if this manager who really wants us to have a different lived experience, like what if we could have that? And I think the promise of this model is as I'm walking this path on this earth, I have a different lived experience and how people respond to me, how I respond to others.
[00:48:23] Seth Kopald: It is really about, a lot of it is about how our protectors shift, like we heal our exiles, but when the protectors shift, that's when we feel a lived experience from my opinion, almost even more. 'cause exiles is usually back there and the unconscious and where like my protectors don't have to do all this stuff anymore.
[00:48:43] Seth Kopald: There's less of those F's that I have to give. It just, life just feels a lot better.
[00:48:48] John Clarke: Yep. That's well said. Seth we'll absolutely do it again. For now, how do you wanna wrap up or how do people learn more about you, your book and your work, and how do they get in touch with [00:49:00] you?
[00:49:00] Seth Kopald: If you just go to seth kal.com, S-E-T-H-K-O-P-A-L-D, it has my link to my book, it has my email. Ways of contacting me as I add new things. I'll be adding it. I will be doing a self-led parenting retreat with sociology in October. So if people wanna come to Connecticut and be with me for five days it's gonna be like deep attunement to your own parts.
[00:49:24] Seth Kopald: Like almost a re-parenting inside so that we can really get the feel of how we can be with our children. But it's gonna be a lot of really deep level. What I call authentic, like exquisite attunement. And it probably will dip into a lot of spiritual mystical things. 'cause that just happens when I teach, so
[00:49:42] John Clarke: Amazing.
[00:49:43] John Clarke: We'll be sure to include your links in the description Of course. And yeah, thank you again for being here. Part two was really great. So thanks again Seth, and we'll we'll be in touch until the next time.
[00:49:54] Seth Kopald: Thank you, John. It's always good to hang with you.
[00:49:56] John Clarke: Thanks for listening to another episode of Going [00:50:00] Inside. If you enjoyed this episode, please like and subscribe wherever you're listening or watching, and share your favorite episode with a friend. You can follow me on Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok at johnclarketherapy and apply to work with me one-on-one at johnclarketherapy.com.
[00:50:14] John Clarke: See you next time.