Can IFS Therapy Be Dangerous? What You Need to Know
In this episode of Going Inside Live, John Clarke tackles a wide range of real-time questions from therapists, including a provocative one: Can Internal Family Systems (IFS) therapy actually be harmful? John explores the nuances of working with protectors, polarization, dissociation, DID, and the ethical concerns therapists face when practicing powerful modalities like IFS.
Whether you're an IFS practitioner or just curious about parts work, this episode is filled with candid insights and clinical gems to deepen your therapeutic presence.
Key Takeaways:
Why IFS Might Be “Too Powerful” – Learn how bypassing protectors or diving too quickly into exile work can actually destabilize clients.
Can IFS Work With DID and Severe Dissociation? – John explores how IFS adapts to extreme trauma, alters, and fractured systems — and what not to do.
The Therapist’s Shadow – Why certification doesn’t guarantee safety, and how even well-trained therapists can unintentionally cause harm.
Resources & Offerings:
➡️ Free IFS Training for Therapists: From Burnout to Balance: https://go.johnclarketherapy.com/ifs-webinar-podcast➡️ 1-Month Grace Period with Jane – Use code JOHN or visit: https://meet.jane.app/john-clarke-ambassador
➡️ 10% Off at Grounding Well – Use code GWJOHNCLARKE or visit: https://www.groundingwell.com/GWJOHNCLARKE
➡️ 10% Off at Dharma Dr. – Use code JOHN or visit: https://dharmadr.com/JOHN
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Transcript:
John Clarke: [00:00:00] Hey everyone. Welcome back. We are here for another episode of Going Inside Live. Uh, this was a lot of fun to do last week and so I'm really happy to be with you all again. Having a live component is just lots of fun and it makes sure that you know. What I'm doing is, uh, hopefully relevant to you and timely and based on your actual questions and challenges that you're working through right now.
So thanks for, um, being here. As a reminder, you can either ask me a question here, live on YouTube in the comments, and I'll bring it up on screen. Um, if you are courageous enough to come on live with me, you can email support@johnclarketherapy.com. And we will send you a link to join this platform with me and you can do some live, uh, consultation with me, uh, like we did last week.
So that is always an option. Let's get to our first question. Um, this is from [00:01:00] Andrew. S Andrew says, I have found using exercises from no bad parts, such as parts mapping or getting to know a protector helpful. Then we process it afterwards. Do you see any potential pitfalls to this? Um, it's a really good question.
I mean, I think what you're generally asking is to what degree is it safe to do IFS on my own? And there's a few ways to come at this, this question. One is, yes, I think it's generally safe to do, to get to know your parts on your own, where you can get into some, uh, you know, some deep waters is. If you go and are working with very exiled parts of your system and you end up being blended with another part.
So for instance, um, I was just doing a demo inside of our Pathways to Self program and we met an [00:02:00] exile and I checked, how are you feeling toward the part? And she said, well, it was good, but now feeling kind of annoyed. So then we turned toward this part that was. Calling, uh, we call it the impatient part, or the client called the impatient part, and we're working with that one.
So that could have gone off the rails. Essentially, if we bypass protector concerns, it can go off the rails and the work can be dangerous. So in general, you do have to be careful. Now, I haven't even read it, but there's this whole article going. Around about like, can IFS break you or the therapy that can break you being IFS.
Um, and I think I, I, the article, I think probably written to be rage bait and it's working 'cause everyone's up in arms about it. AK super activated and blended because of it. One article, um, the [00:03:00] question is like, can you do damage with any therapy really? And I would argue that you can, in part because of the power imbalance between therapists and client and the vulnerability of being a client.
And the therapist knowing a lot about you and you knowing very little or next to nothing about the therapist. Also, people may be in very vulnerable mental states and having a mental health crisis, and so they're more vulnerable and their systems are more vulnerable to influence, whether it's with a narcissistic psychoanalyst or a narcissistic CBT therapist or whatever.
It doesn't really matter. Now, is IFS potentially, can it be more harmful than say CBT? I would argue yes it can because it's so powerful. I don't know why this is, but the more I have gone into people's systems with them, the more I see and can respect the delicacy of it. [00:04:00] Systems are very delicately.
Designed parts are very delicately positioned and you can make a mess out of things. You could do damage. This is why the manual itself, the if FS manual for clinicians, you know, recommends not working with exiles unless you've been trained by the institute. That's a whole can of worms. But I at times have had parts about that, parts up about that.
And I also understand it and I completely understand where Dick is coming from. And putting in that out there, a lot of people go into other people's systems and they bulldoze and they bypass protectors and they get protector backlash and they fully dissociate people or people could relapse or, um, be suicidal, et cetera.
So this work can be really dangerous because it's a really, really powerful method. So you have to honor that. So back to Andrew's question. [00:05:00] Um, potential pitfalls are if you go past protectors and are working with exiles and have unintentionally bypassed your own protectors. Yes, that's a big pitfall and you could really screw up your system in my experience.
But maybe, you know, I think the best combination is a blend of doing your work on your own and doing work with a therapist and keeping it safe, maybe saving the exile work for a therapist who's. IFS trained. It also depends on your background, your trauma history, the degree and severity of your trauma history, the polarization of your system at large, and what parts you're working with, what type of content the parts are related to.
So it depends on a lot of things. Yeah. Okay. We have a comment. Um, I agree. That Celtic girl any time. I agree. Anytime a therapist prioritizes their own comfort, [00:06:00] own parts or own agenda equals harm. Yeah. Yeah. And, and this can be really subtle. I mean even par, even therapists, and you could be IFS trained, you could be IFS certified.
It, it, in a way, it doesn't really matter because. Therapists and practitioners, doctors, whomever can still abuse their power and they can be problematic and they can do damage no matter how well trained you are or institute, trained or not, or level three or not. So ultimately, a big part of being a good practitioner is discernment and respect and humility and reverence for people and their autonomy.
Part of the trauma vortex is loss of agency, loss of autonomy, loss of choice. And so the counter vortex to that, the healing vortex is choice, autonomy, respect, agency. And that starts with therapy. That starts with clients having a [00:07:00] very, very high degree of choice in therapy. Do you wanna do IFS today or not?
Do you wanna meet this week or not? Do you wanna go toward that part or not? Do you wanna get to know that part or not? Or something else. Right. Do you wanna go toward that, that sensation in your stomach or maybe not?
Part of how we keep the work safe is we always default to the client and their system and really to protectors they are the gatekeepers.
As therapists, we hold space for so many. But who's holding space for us? If you're craving deeper healing and more powerful tools for your clients, I wanna invite you to my free webinar on Internal Family Systems Therapy. IFS changed my life and the way I practice. It helped me move through burnout, reconnect with my authentic self, and show up more fully for my clients and for myself.
In this webinar, I'm gonna walk you through what IFS is and why it works. A simple tool that you can use right away and how to bring this work [00:08:00] into your practice, even if you're just beginning. This is for therapists ready to go deeper. Join us now with the link in the description.
Susie says, how would you support a client who beco, who comes in reporting, not remembering the last three years of their life except anchor points? With the IFS practitioner,
uh, this would ma raise major red flags for me. The first thing I would think is, and this is not an IFS thing, but as a practitioner, you know, a clinician rule out any organic. Issues, meaning any medical issues, neurological issues, et cetera, that could be contributing to this issue. Not remembering the last three years of their life is pretty significant.
Is their brain damage? Is there dementia? Is there something neurological, biological going on? So that'd be the first thing to rule out. The second thing would be if this is purely [00:09:00] a a, a psychological psychiatric. Issue in nature. I'd be very curious why this level of dissociation has occurred and is occurring.
It's significant, right? Something so horrific must have happened that parts that dissociate go, I'm taking you offline, or I'm taking you offline for three years, except for these anchor points with the IFS practitioner. Which is also interesting. So if this is your client, Susie, um, maybe you're doing direct access and maybe you're accessing their parts, and maybe that's why they can and are remembering something, or just remembering, you know, stuff for, uh, you know, stuff from a session or whatever it is.
But I would have real concerns. I would also wanna rule out, um, you know, schizophrenia or something along these lines. Again, this is a non IFS answer because IFS is [00:10:00] non non pathologizing and I think it's 99% of the time important to be non pathologizing, except in the cases of something a lot more severe and sinister going on where a diagnosis can really help and medication can really help.
So if there's something this severe, you have to rule out. Organic causes, you have to rule out. Psychosis of some kind. You have to rule out DID, dissociative identity disorder, multiple personality disorder. Um, you have to rule that out. You have to be curious about that, right? 'cause again, it's, it's pretty extreme to not remember the past three years of your life.
Yeah, I would get extra consulting around this case if I were you, and maybe this is already the work that you do, so you're in your wheelhouse. But, um. I would wanna get extra consulting. If you're here live, ask your questions in the comments. I'd love to answer some live questions. Otherwise [00:11:00] I'll answer another pre-submitted question.
If you wanna submit a question next time, you can just email support@johnclarketherapy.com. If you wanna come on live with me, which would be my preference, and do some live consulting email support@johnclarketherapy.com and we can bring you on when we meet again in two weeks from now.
Another question from Arsha. The question is, please explain the concept of polarization with parts, perhaps with a common pattern or set of parts that you may see in cases of addiction and how a practitioner might go about working with this. Yeah, this is a really good question in a really, um, kind of an easy one to answer, I guess, especially since you've set me up so well with.
The addiction question, a classic polarization is you have a firefighter part that says, um, you know, I went through this a day at work. I got some [00:12:00] difficult feedback from my, my boss. And even though I got through that moment, I got home and I started to think about how that felt and it felt really bad. A part that holds shame got activated when I was thinking about it.
So a firefighter part that likes to drink said, screw it or F it, let's drink and let's drink one or two or three or seven or 17 beers or whatever. And another part you would call it a manager says, you can't do that. You shouldn't do that. That's not healthy. This is an issue. You're probably an alcoholic.
You're gonna destroy your liver. Or worse. Right, and the firefighter part says, I don't really give a damn because my method works. It gets us distance from this pain and shame, right? It quells the, the, the exile. So that's the polarization, right? You've got us think of it as two people on the same team that want something [00:13:00] good for the team, but they fundamentally and profoundly disagree.
Um, about how to do it right. Let's drink a lot. Let's drink until we can't feel anymore. And the other part is like, this is terrible. This is not good for you. Drinking is not okay. You have to go to work tomorrow. Right? A part of you that says we should lose weight. A part of you that says, screw it, let's eat right.
You could also have two managers that are polarized. You can have a manager polarized with an exile. You could have, uh, I, I mentioned before, you know, um, a demo that, that we just did in Pathways program where there was some polarization between an exile and a manager part that was kind of annoyed with the exile or, uh, the word was impatient.
That's a polarization as well, right? It's just a charge in the system. And IF in IFS, we primarily go toward the [00:14:00] charge and we work with the charge or the charges inside the system, and we try to bring peace and love and harmony to it. That's really the whole model in a, in a single breath. And in that regard that the, the model's not that complicated.
We have a way of making it complicated 'cause we get all. Out of sorts about like protector or exile or this or a, you know, do you flesh it out first or do you ask the age second or whatever. And these are all just, it's a modular system that is used to work with someone's system, but it's an art. So don't forget that the whole thing is an art.
Psychotherapy is an art, IFS is an art. And so your application of it is gonna depend on your artistry. Which is different than mine, right? Is the work correct? Are you following the model or following the steps? You know, [00:15:00] really it's like is the work beautiful and meaningful? And is it, is there love in the session?
Is there warmth and compassion in the session? Be besides that. Feel free to improvise. Feel free to be creative, one of your seed qualities. Feel free to try stuff. Feel free to involve the body or art or nature in your IFS or whatever. You're a practitioner and you've been, you know, for many of you licensed and approved by your board or whatever to apply techniques discerningly, so go do that.
And talk to the client about how it's going. Talk to the client about how they're liking IFS. How was this moment for you? How was this session for you? Keep working on the contracting piece of, of therapy, three levels of contracting. What are we working on? What are we working on today? What are we [00:16:00] working on in this moment?
How do you wanna be helped? And you make that explicit over and over again at ad nauseum.
Um, okay, so to ASHA's question, how do you work with a polarization? Well, you work with the part that's the loudest. At least that's how you start. So if the loudest one is the part that says, screw it, let's drink. Let's freaking go, baby. You know, you work with that part first and foremost, because that one is here and it's here now, and it's got the microphone.
So you work with it and go, yeah, you've got the microphone. Tell me what could be good about drinking. When did you start doing it? Why did you start doing it? What do you fear would happen if you didn't drink? If you just sat with the shame, you know, after a long day or after a difficult conversation or whatever, and you do that line of questioning, you do the downward error technique, what do you fear would happen if, okay, and then what would that mean and what would that mean and what would that mean?
That's how you get to the core fear or the core wounding of it. And at some [00:17:00] point, you, you, you connect the polarized parts to self. That's the internal attachment work we're doing and they trust and can be led by self. And then self is in the driver's seat and self can decide to have a drink or zero or seven or whatever.
Self can stay in the driver's seat when you're getting difficult feedback at work or whatever. So that's kind of how we do it. Really you wanna hear from both parts. So you would invite the part that drinks and the part that doesn't approve of the drinking. Invite them both to the table, a physical table, you could imagine that, a campfire, whatever, keep them connected to self and have self hear them out lovingly and compassionately.
These parts might need to be unburdened, if that's relevant and if that, you know, kind of comes up. Yeah, if that happens naturally. So. I hope that helps. [00:18:00] Got one more question from Jenny. Jenny, thanks for coming. Um, and yeah, that's the last question we have, so if you have questions, feel free to ask them.
Otherwise, I'm gonna be running out here pretty soon. Uh, Jenny says, what do you recommend aftercare look like? Post IFS sessions? It's a really good question. The first thing I would say is tend to any parts that have immediate fears or concerns. So if you have capacity to after your own session or you're advising a client, it would be to do some of that follow up with their own system.
If they are capable of doing that and they're familiar enough with the model and have enough self-energy, can you tend to the parts, the ones you were just working with? Stay connected to them. Foster that connection with them, debrief with them. Talk about follow up, what follow up will look like with them.
Um, and you only wanna make a promise that you could actually [00:19:00] keep. So if there is a promise to be made, you would make that promise with the part, again, you're rebuilding trust. It's a, it's relational repair is what the model's about. Repairing internal attachments. Then by nature of that, you end up repairing external attachments.
When I'm more self-led, I can repair my external relationships and attachments, and my attachment with others is less high stakes because I have stronger internal attachment between me and my parts, so I don't get all bent out of shape when people hurt me or disappoint me or are inconsistently there for me or whatever.
I. That's kind of a byproduct of the work, a positive byproduct. Otherwise, what does it look like after sessions? Well, I don't know what, what does it look like after a really good workout or after a physical therapy session or after a massage or. [00:20:00] Whatever. So it might just look like self care. It might look like connecting with nature, a walk in the woods.
It might look like connecting with water. I'd be a big fan of that. It might look like changing your clothes. Maybe you'd light a candle during your sessions and then blow it out at the end. That's a Kelly Higdon thing, one of my, one of my friends and a great therapist and coach. Um, yeah, you might create some ritual around it.
Around it. Um, you might make art. You could make art about what, you know, what happened. You could make art from the perspective of a part. Um, you could, yeah, listen to music. You could dance, basically connect with your self energy. You could journal about what happened in the session, you know, that could be helpful for your, your system and your, your, your process for tracking what's actually happening and remembering what happened in session.
[00:21:00] Um, yeah, Janice says, thinks that's, uh, I had a therapist tell me to drink water and eat protein. Yeah. Whatever. Whatever works to take care of yourself. And part of what we wanna do as a practitioner is help help clients leave the room zipped up. Right. Reasonably zipped up again. Put things back in, you know, put things back in.
And we want to spend, gosh, five, 10 minutes at the end of the session really just kind of chatting and debriefing and even talking about what happened here today. Sometimes clients need to chat about other stuff just to kind of get regulated again and co-regulate, and that's very normal and very important.
So I would recommend, I would recommend that actually really think about how to land the plane as a practitioner. 5, 10, 15 minutes before the session, give a client the warning, Hey, we've got about 15 minutes [00:22:00] left. Where do you wanna go from here? Or, Hey, we've got 10 minutes left. Does it make sense to go deeper?
Does it make sense to start wrapping up? Check and see if you have a sense for what your parts need, what your system needs. Yeah. Another question from Maryanne. Thanks for your live questions here. Maryanne says, what level is. IFS applied in alters, meaning there are many levels in which alters could show up in the most extreme case.
SRA or specific military mk, is IFS ever been known to be used at that level? Well, what I think you're talking about is DID, dissociative identity sort disorder. Alters of, um, the multiple personalities.
Um, the short [00:23:00] answer is yes. IFS can be great for DID. Um, I've, I've worked with DIDA bit. My mentor works with DIDA lot. Um, you would approach it in a pretty similar fashion, meaning you start with protectors. You work with protectors and you get that protector consent, and they're basically the gatekeepers with DID.
There's usually one particular protector who is kind of like the ultimate gatekeeper, right? Kinda like the host, the part or the personality that kind of dictates everything else and is kind of the one in charge. So in working with DID, you would primarily. First and foremost, work with this, this part or this personality, this altar or sub personality, right?
Yeah. And you might apply some of the same concepts of IFS [00:24:00] befriending, exploring fears, exploring the history of those fears, the origin, right?
Yeah, I know that Dick Schwartz did an interview with Tammy Somberg on her podcast, the one Inside with Dick Schwartz and someone who has DID and they talked about it 'cause some DID folks are not stoked about IFS from what I can understand from that interview. But it's not necessarily like my wheelhouse.
So I'm fascinated in it and I'd like to work with DID more. In my experience, DID is an extreme splitting of the sub personalities. Extreme splitting or polarization of the parts and self is more fractured. Self and self energy is more fractured. Fractured. They have limited access to self or virtually no access to self.
So you'd be doing pretty much all [00:25:00] direct access work. With these clients until further notice, until you can build a bridge between one of their parts and their self-energy, which could take months or years. And in my experience, you, you really just see I-D-D-I-D with cases of extreme childhood trauma and abuse.
Often sexual in nature, a lot of times comes from the family, et cetera, so horrific. Levels of abuse and the personality structure essentially splits and says, this is too much, so I'm gonna split off entirely right until further notice, until it's safe to be here again. Part of how therapy helps is we, over time, we make it safe or safer to, to kind of be here again.
That's how it works, right? Yeah. [00:26:00] Yeah, good question. Um, those are all the pre-written questions I have and all the live questions I have for now. If you're here live and have another question, feel free to ask it. Otherwise, we'll start wrapping up. I'm gonna be doing this again in two weeks from. Today. So it'll be off next week for the holiday, and then back at it on, uh, December 2nd at 12:00 PM Pacific, 3:00 PM Eastern.
That's gonna be the next one. So again, uh, submit your question ahead of time or request to come on here, live with me on video and get some free consulting. Supervision. You can just email support@johnclarketherapy.com if you're interested in that, that opportunity. Otherwise, if you're, if you like this sort of help and like the way that I approach this stuff, I.
I would encourage you to consider joining Pathways to Self Pathways [00:27:00] is my membership program where you get access to a community, you get access to my courses, and you get access to a weekly consult call with me and a small group of clinicians, five, five to eight clinicians or so on Zoom every single week where you can come and ask me questions and get real consulting and help and be part of our community and be less alone as a practitioner.
Um, we are gonna do away with the founder pricing soon. So if you're interested, you can join right now for 99 bucks a month, which I think is a steal for the amount of help and, you know, support you're getting and the level of support, but that, that price is gonna go away soon. So if you wanna lock in founder's pricing of 99 bucks a month, go to John Clark therapy.com/pathways.
I will answer one more since I got one. Um. The Celtic girl is asking, what guidance can you offer on stability to a client who discloses being in an abusive environment? This is a [00:28:00] fantastic question, and in my experience, the work is limited while someone is actively in and especially living in an abusive environment or living with an abusive person.
If a lot of the work is about the abuse and about that abusive person, it's really hard to. Do good work while they're still in it. That doesn't mean you can't, that doesn't mean you can't work on your core IFS skills like unblending and building self energy and finding a way to stay to survive this situation that they're in.
But in my experience, and especially with, um, folks who, you know, are seeking things like EMDR and doing trauma reprocessing work, memory reprocessing work, um. I don't think you should be doing that. Reprocessing work while they're, while they're still in it, right? Like if someone's going through a really hard divorce and they're still going through it.
[00:29:00] My, in my experience, it doesn't make sense to like really do that reprocessing work until some safety. Is established and some, uh, a next step is established or they've gotten physical distance from the abusive environment slash person. So in the meantime, what do you do? You help 'em build a bridge. You help 'em dig a tunnel, right?
It might look like more solution focused work to help them get out of this abusive environment or situation if they even want to, which they might not. In a lot of cases, people don't want to. Or they're not ready or it's too scary to leave the abusive person. So there's a lot of pitfalls in that type of situation where people will stay in those situations for years knowing it's abusive, but having so much fear and codependence around leaving or putting their foot down saying this is not okay.
Or there's parts that find it [00:30:00] familiar. You know, this is, this is what I'm used to, this is what I know. And so parts tend to seek out that same familiarity. Even if it is seeking out an abusive person, an abusive, demanding partner, whatever, we tend to recreate our wounding. And a lot of times, you know, physical and romantic attraction is coming from our wounding.
That's a lot of times what initially draws us together is also like that spark can be directly coming from our core wounding, your wounded part, connecting with their wounded part
fun times. Hope that was helpful. Yeah, it's a really good question.
Yeah, we got a bunch of people here live, which I really appreciate you being here live. It's really fun for me. It gives this [00:31:00] kind of a new flavor. I'm gonna play around with having like a co-host in a few weeks. It's a therapist who reached out and was interested in kind of doing his own podcast. He's a newer therapist, but I think would be good as like a co-host or a sidekick.
So we'll see how that goes and if, um, you know, if that's something that we decide to keep doing or just as a one off, but. The more I can make this content interactive with you, the better. Um, if you've been enjoying the content, just you, you can do me a favor by either joining Pathways to self and or just sharing the content with people.
Share your favorite episode with someone, whether it's a YouTube version or Spotify or Apple Music, whatever, iTunes, um, share the show with a couple people, other practitioners, other people that, uh, are interested in IFS. Whether you're a practitioner or you're a client, you're a consumer and you enjoy listening to, to the show.
So, um, my kind of dream is to do like a call in show. So really I love these questions [00:32:00] where people could call in. Either audio or they could leave a voicemail or even come on screen like we did last week with someone. So that was cool. Um, Lawrence says, I'm learning IFS at the moment, so these are fantastic.
We'll come again. Yeah. Thanks Lawrence. And, and congrats on learning IFS and it's, it's a journey. It really is like learning an art. Um, so enjoy that process of, of learning and thank you for, for being here. Yeah. I do these because. I wanna be as helpful as possible. And I love therapy and I love IFS and um, I love the art of all of it.
So I'm just always interested to go further with this stuff. And I do a lot of teaching these days, whether it's with pathways to self or teaching at my group practice, call again, counseling. Um. I'm gonna be yeah, teaching some master's students next next year teaching a theories course. So I just love [00:33:00] teaching and mentoring and have a big, you know, big heart for it.
So a lot of heart for it, I guess. Uh, Lawrence says, thanks from Australia. You're keeping me company for breakfast. Yeah. Um, there's, there's a lot of, uh, Australians who, like IFSI dunno what the correlation is there, but that's, that's really cool.
Uh, another comment. Thank you for doing this. Your podcast is super, super helpful to me as a practitioner. Yeah, thank you for that. And you're, and you're very welcome. Marianne says, what was the name of the person? Um, Dick Schwartz was interviewing with DID, um, I don't remember. So if you look up Tammy Sullenberger, it's, uh, the one inside.
In her interview with Dick Schwartz and a person with DID Yeah,[00:34:00]
let's see if I could find it. If not, it's um, yeah. Okay. So bridging IFS and the plural community with, um, Dick Schwartz and Tiffany Ocean Morgan. So if you just Google that. You should be able to find it and I could probably even just put a link here, post a comment. Boom. Yeah, it's a good, it's a good interview.
Really interesting one. So I hope that's helpful.
Yeah. Okay. I. Maybe we'll pause for today. Answered a lot of questions, had a lot of fun, my version of fun. And, um, I will see you all again two weeks from now, same time and place on YouTube or wherever. And, um, that'll be two weeks from now and it'll be again, 12:00 PM Pacific, 3:00 PM Eastern, and, uh, whatever the hell time it [00:35:00] is in Australia.
So there you go. Thanks again for, for being here. I really appreciate you all and, um, thank you for supporting me. It means a lot and, uh, uh, keep coming back. See you soon. Thanks again.
Thanks for listening to another episode of Going Inside. If you enjoyed this episode, please like and subscribe wherever you're listening or watching, and share your favorite episode with a friend. You can follow me on Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok at johnclarketherapy and apply to work with me one-on-one at johnclarketherapy.com.
See you next time.