IFS or SE First? The Grounding Debate Therapists Face
In this live Q&A episode of Going Inside, John Clarke dives deep into the intersection of Internal Family Systems (IFS) and Somatic Experiencing (SE). Therapists asked real questions about how to ground clients with complex trauma, whether SE can bypass protectors, and how to handle burnout, fear of messing up, and imposter syndrome. John offers raw, nuanced insights—from co-regulation to clinical contracting—that will resonate with any trauma-informed therapist striving to do deeper, more relational work.
3 Key Takeaways:
Is SE bypassing your client’s protectors? Learn how to spot subtle protector bypassing even with gentle somatic work—and how IFS can help re-establish choice and agency.
Why grounding may be overemphasized: John challenges the assumption that therapists must ground first, proposing self-energy and relational presence as grounding in itself.
Burnout starts with belief systems: Discover how internal polarizations and unexamined fears silently drive overworking—and how IFS can unwind the deeper exile dynamics.
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John Clarke: [00:00:00] A big part of our responsibility, regardless of the model you're using, is tending to the process of therapy, tending to the process, tending to the relationship, right? It's like a garden. It's you have to tend to it constantly. It's a primary responsibility of the therapist. Really good therapists are really good at tending to the process and tending to the relationship.
Going Inside is a podcast on a mission to help people heal from trauma and reconnect with their authentic self. Join me trauma therapist John Clarke for guest interviews, real life therapy sessions, and soothing guided meditations. Whether you're navigating your own trauma, helping others heal from trauma, or simply yearning for a deeper understanding of yourself, going inside is your companion on the path to healing and self-discovery.
Download free guided meditations and apply to work with me one-on-one at johnclarketherapy.com. Thanks for being here. Let's dive in.
Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Going Inside [00:01:00] Live. I'm your host, John Clarke. I'm a licensed therapist group practice owner and a guide for therapists, um, looking to deepen their trauma work and build sustainable thriving practices. So. Excited to answer some live questions with you.
Again, I've got a bunch of questions that were pre-submitted, so thanks for that. Uh, I'll start with those. Um, but for folks here live, go ahead and ask your questions in the chat and I'll, uh, knock 'em out one by one. As a reminder, if you wanna work with me in a small group setting, you can always join Pathways to Self.
It's my monthly membership program. The main offering is my, um, weekly consult group where you can come and I walk us through an exercise or a. Uh, IFS meditation, somatic, uh, exercise, things like that. And then we do, um, case consultation and questions and teaching and, um, it's a lot of fun. So you can always join, try it for a month and see if you like it.
There's no commitment pass then. And, um, [00:02:00] uh, yeah, love to, to see you in there and help you take your practice to, um, uh, that next level. Okay. First question from kb. Um, the question is. The full question is, hey, would love to hear how you're liking slash struggling with integrating parts work with se. Um, I'm trained in both and find that if I'm not more careful with pure se, uh, SE work can often bypass protectors.
Um, okay. Yeah. I find pure se can bypass protectors yet move life force capacity when. Life force when capacity is there. Do you ground slash resource first with complex trauma? Yeah. Well let me answer your last question first. 'cause that's really the big one in like the hot, hot button topic. Um, the pure IFS answer in my experience is often that IFS does not teach grounding [00:03:00] directly because going inside and accessing parts.
When you have some self-energy is the ultimate grounding exercise. It's the ultimate coping skill. It's the end all, be all of coping skills, right? If you have a fear of flying, you could treat the fear of flying and do exposure work. You could do IFS and teach them that skill of going inside and being with parts when they're scared.
And by doing that, you can help your client overcome their fear of flying, for instance. So it's kind of chicken or the egg, right? Like which one needs to happen first? You need to ground and resource first, especially with complex trauma, or do you approach the work with IFS as your first line of defense or offense in this case?
Um, I would say this in my experience and, and as someone who does both se and IFS and [00:04:00] lots of other things. I, well, I'm primarily a relational therapist, so what that means for me is that my primary responsibility is to be in connection and in resonance with them and to use my presence as an intervention in itself, and that is inherently grounding and resourcing for them.
So if they're really freaked out and dissociated. Panicky, whatever. I'm just going to kind of invite them to connect with me. Yeah. So a lot going on. You're feeling really detached right now. Yeah. Notice what that's like. Notice what it's like to be here with me. Right. Don't forget I'm here in the room with you.
Yeah. And as you look at me or as you connect here with me, what's that like? What happens inside as you do that? I want them to see that I can help contain their overwhelm. Which is attachment work. Right. That it's not too much for me. I'm not [00:05:00] freaked out by it. Right. To me, that's a, that's an intervention in itself.
If you are gonna do like grounding work or resourcing work, I would say, um, I'm a bigger fan of like co-regulation. Then like, let me walk you through a deep breathing exercise and let me like psychoeducation you or teach you some. I don't know, tricky breathing technique or whatever, but, um, it's up to you.
And it depends on what they need and it's about the contract, right? So do, are they asking for those types of grounding, resourcing, uh, exercises? Do they need it? Right? Are they requesting it or is it something you feel like you, you need to do or should do? Or are you doing an out of obligation. Or are you doing it because your own system is dysregulated?
Which is understandable, but I would argue like not a reason to do it, [00:06:00] you know? So you said, I find pure SE can bypass protectors. Well, anything can bypass protectors, right? CBT can bypass protectors, mindfulness can bypass protectors. You know, just close your eyes and just focus in. That can bypass protectors, right?
Versus one option is to close your eyes. One option is to keep your eyes open, especially for people with trauma. Closing your eyes can indicate danger or bad things are about to happen, or bad things happened when I closed my eyes or went to sleep or whatever. So you can unintentionally bypass protectors left and right with whatever you're doing.
That's part of why you need really good. Gentle open-ended invitational language at all times, right? One option is to close your eyes. One option is to keep them open. See what feels right. One option is we go inside today. [00:07:00] One option is we just talk, right? One option is we do a little se, one option is we get ice cream, you know, and tell jokes.
I don't know.
Give. Giving those options. Because what's important is the client has choice in all things. Part of the trauma vortex is loss of choice, loss of agency. So part of the healing vortex is lots of choice, lots of agency.
It's a really good question. Thank you for bringing that.
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Another SE question, I don't know what's going on here. Um, I'm studying se. This is from, uh, Mimi. I'm studying se and wanna start incorporating IFS. I have limited funds right now. What can you recommend? Um, I love your show and the library access has been super helpful and I need more.
Um, I can recommend johnclarketherapy.com. Click on Pathways.
Yeah, I mean, 'cause yeah, if you wanna work [00:09:00] with us, you know, we've got. You're gonna get access to the weekly consultation group, and people are at varying places with their IFS work. Um, but you know, you'd, you'd have access to those consultation calls where you can get your questions answered, and I can help you integrate this stuff.
So that's a great place to start for, you know, right now. Um, less than 200 bucks a month. Um, otherwise. What else can I recommend? I mean, outside of level one trainings, which are gonna be the most, have the biggest wait list as we all know, and then be the most expensive. My level one was like 39 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 4 grand, basically.
Um, so long wait list. Most expensive. Um. Another option would be I-F-S-C-A Stepping Stones, where I originally trained with Derek Scott and I do some support staffing there. Now, [00:10:00] um, great program, I would argue as a level one equivalent, although the institute would hate me for saying that. Um, yeah, so those are great places to start.
I mean, I think just getting some supervision on your work is really what you need. However you do that. So I mean, if you could record sessions of you doing some IFS and bring that to me, bring it to Pathways, that'd be amazing. I can give you some guidance there. If you wanted to break down a session, you know, if you had a client who consent to it and we could break it down on this show and do some live consultation on the show, that'd be really cool.
This is just me, the, the content creator and me thinking out loud.
Yeah, offensively always thinking of like content ideas, like to a, um, to a disgusting degree.
Um, but yeah, [00:11:00] so really receiving the model and using the model are the best things. So receiving it through your own therapy, working with a good if FS therapist and then incorporating it, you know, trying it out. Ideally, having some supervised practice is gonna be your best bet. If not, just keep doing what you're doing.
I mean, you know, consume all the free stuff, you can consume all of our free stuff. Um, watch all the demos that we have here. You know, I have like a demo dissection I did where I broke down my own demo. To me, stuff like that's really gonna help you get the nitty gritty of the model and like the nuts and bolts.
Um, so to, to me, I, I think very technically. I'm generally like a, uh, very present, but also very technical therapist. So big on technique and, um, there can be a lot of technique within IFS, although it's also very relational. Another se question. Here we go, three for three. Uh, Helena or Helena asks, I'm, I'm a fairly [00:12:00] new SEP, that's ec experiencing practitioner studying IFS.
And when I get a new client, I get nervous about everything, how it'll go, how I'll mess up, will they like me, et cetera. I will push seeing them, uh, for a, a few more days. Yeah. I mean. I totally get this, and I would just say start by noticing the parts that are activated around this, around. Um, and notice the want, want is the other side of fear, right?
So when I hear I want, like, if someone's like, I want to be really successful, I'm always thinking that. I'm hearing that as I fear being unsuccessful and I ask them about the fear. So when I hear the wants here of, I wanna know like how it'll go. If I'll mess up, will they like me? I want them to like me.
What's scared about them not liking you? Because some people won't like you and some of your clients won't like you. Some of your clients, some of my clients don't like me or they [00:13:00] met me or we tried and they didn't like me and that's okay. Uh, I mess up so I do mess up. But attachments about rupture and repair.
So if I'm humble myself to moments where I mess up or miss the mark, then we can. Repair and move through that, and then how it'll go. I never know how it'll go. The whole thing is improvised, right? It's like doing improv. It's like a trustful. I have no idea what they're gonna bring into this session. Are they gonna tell me, oh my God, I got engaged, my life's amazing.
Or, uh, I lost my job and now I don't wanna live. I have no idea, but I trust. That I can improvise and I trust that I can help them be with whatever they're holding. I don't have to fix it all or know what to do at all times. Sometimes I can just be in resonance with them and be a witness to what they're going through.
Less is more. So you, you're only gonna get through these fears if you lean into them and just start doing your [00:14:00] work. Start seeing clients, push through those fears, be with those fears and do it anyway. Yeah. Okay. We have a, um. We have a live question here. Yeah. Thank you so much for the live questions, so keep those coming.
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question is from Catan. Uh, any tips on how to work with corporate burnout using IFS, uh, when even on sick leave, a client feels guilty for not being there for his team at work while trusting his team fully to be doing well? Um, yeah, I mean, so I'm a huge fan of downward error technique. Which by the way, is a CBT technique that IFS just snuck in there to IFS.
But CBT is just manager on manager, right? My manager working with their manager. So this client, uh, has a part, he has a part that says, um, I should be there at work, or I'm letting people down if I'm not here, or if I don't do it, then it's not gonna get done. Okay. What do you fear would happen if it doesn't get done If you're not there?
'cause you're [00:16:00] on leave right now and it doesn't get done well, then the team falls behind. And then what do you fear that would mean? And then we would have to fire people. And then what would that mean? And then I might lose my job. And then what would that mean? Then I'm a total failure. And then what would that mean?
Just that I'm a failure and I'm alone. So. Again, the rushing nesting to all of it is the core is exile. Holding the belief that I am worthless, un lovable, and then the manager is working really hard to make sure that that exile doesn't get exposed.
So you want to help gently pull back some of those layers, right? What's so scary about this all going wrong? Right? So I, I would, I would guess that he has a lot of unexamined fears, right? These are the things that are driving his anxiety that eventually drove his work, his overworking, and that eventually led him to [00:17:00] burnout.
And now he's on leave, right? Probably on sick leave because of his burnout, he's working too much and his immune system is like, Nope, shutting down. So when the client says, well, I feel guilty for not being there, for my team at work, there's a part that says I should be there, or even when I'm not, well, I should be there.
I'm letting people down. What do you fear? It means if you're letting them down, if they think, gosh, where is he? So you gotta, yeah, you just gotta peel back the layers of, of, of that until you get to the core. And when you get to the core, you're essentially in exile territory. So you gotta be careful and go slow and gentle.
Just work with whatever you're comfortable working with. But that, that's how I would think about it. I, I would help him explore the polarities inside, right? So parts that are overworking and feel like I need to work no matter what. And then parts that maybe say, you need [00:18:00] to slow down, or this is too much, or I don't wanna do any of this.
Or parts that like to drink or smoke or numb out or whatever. Um, I would, I would guess that he probably has quite a few blatant polarizations, and if I were you, I would be listening for those and looking for those and kind of sussing them out that that's where the work is gonna be. Yeah.
Hope that helps. Yeah. Good. Good question. Um, okay. I'll hang around if there are more questions. Another quick reminder, if you wanna work with me weekly, join Pathways to Self. It's John Clarke therapy.com/pathways.
Also, um, if you're enjoying the show, like and subscribe, share your favorite episode. [00:19:00] With whomever, with a few people that would, that would be a huge favor for me. The more you can help us grow, um, the more I can keep doing this for, for a living, or at least as part of my, part of my job. So another piece I'll share while we're here and I'm, I'm waiting for other questions if there are any.
Is around contracting. I talk about this a lot in pathways. There's three levels to contracting. The first level is what's the work about? Why are you, why is the client here? I'm here to work on my social anxiety. The second level of contracting is what are we working on today? In the session we're working on what happens when I, uh, do public speaking or when I'm at parties?
Okay. The third level of contracting is now they're talking about. What happens at parties. The third level of contracting is how do you wanna be helped in this moment? Right? So you're, you're noticing, you're talking about what it's like to be at parties. [00:20:00] You notice yourself start sweating, you're afraid, you feel like everyone's looking at you, whatever.
Um, how do you wanna work with this? Do you wanna do some IFS around this? Do you wanna do EMDR? Do you wanna do some somatic stuff? Do you just wanna kind of talk it through and kind of like, uh, kind of debrief how this whole thing happens or debrief what happened the other day at that party? And if that's the case, then I can still quote do IFS with that too, and I can just be in witness of what this client went through and in my self energy and resonating with him, right?
Or even just using parts language again, is doing IFS and holding that frame and saying, yeah, parts of you that were really worried how people are perceiving you parts that really want to make sure you're, um, good to talk to and fun to talk to, and that you make friends. That makes sense. That makes sense.
So I'm just gonna kind of be in. But we wanna make the work explicit. [00:21:00] And then at the end of the session, you want to get in the habit of saying things like, how was this for you today? Right? How was this session? What was helpful and not so helpful about the session? Really wanna make those explicit, right?
Take the guesswork out. A big part of our responsibility, regardless of the model you're using, is tending to the process of therapy, tending to the process. Tending to the relationship, right. It's like a garden. It's, you have to tend to it constantly. It's a primary responsibility of the therapist. Really good therapists are really good at tending to the process and tending to the relationship.
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That might be it for today, if that's the case. I'm gonna go lay down on the couch, probably take a nap for my next call, and, uh, do that so. Thanks for being here. I hope this was helpful. If you've got questions for [00:22:00] next week, you, you can always email support@johnClarketherapy.com. Uh, my team member Lara will help you to, uh, well, she'll get your questions answered and bring 'em to me.
Uh, next, next time we meet. So, um, let's see here. When are we doing this one again? Uh, so not next. Tuesday, but the following Tuesday, the 17th, I'll be here again. So submit your questions ahead of time. If you are brave enough to do some live consultation with me and jump on, uh, you know, jump on camera with me, that'd be amazing.
So email Lara, if you're, if you're open to that. I'd love to do more live consulting. That's, that's way more fun for me. But this is fun too. So you can email support@johnClarketherapy.com. That's Clarke with an e of course. And, um, I look forward to seeing you all soon. Thanks for following along. Thanks for supporting my work and, uh, take care of yourselves.
Bye-bye.
Thanks for listening to another episode of Going Inside. If you enjoyed this episode, please like and subscribe wherever you're listening or watching, and share your favorite [00:23:00] episode with a friend. You can follow me on Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok at johnclarketherapy and apply to work with me one-on-one at johnclarketherapy.com.
See you next time.